7. Hon NANAIA MAHUTA (Labour—Hauraki-Waikato) to the Associate Minister of Education: Has he read or received the Ministry of Education advice provided to the previous Minister of Education, which states charter schools “have not consistently led to significant increases in achievement”?

Hon JOHN BANKS (Associate Minister of Education) : No, I have not received that specific piece of advice. As the member said, it was sent to the previous Minister. No one is claiming that any initiative in education policy works all the time, every time, everywhere. If there is such an initiative, I wonder why that member’s party did not introduce it over the 9 years that it was in Government. What we do know is that the New Zealand model of charter schools will benefit from knowledge of successes and failures overseas.

Hon Nanaia Mahuta: In light of that answer, would he consider charter schools a success if 37 percent of their students do worse than those in public schools and 50 percent do no better; and if so, is he aware that those were the outcomes of the US charter schools, according to Stanford University in its report referenced in 2009 by the Ministry of Education? [Interruption]

Mr SPEAKER: Order! I want to hear the answer.

Hon JOHN BANKS: This is what we do know. We do know that the new Minister—[Interruption]—we do know that the new—

Mr SPEAKER: Order! Look, I took it that the honourable member’s question was a serious question, and so I would ask her colleagues to make sure they do not make so much noise that they interrupt the Minister and distract him. But the Minister should answer the question. The question was very specific as to whether the Minister would consider it a success were 37 percent of the students considered to have done less well and 50 percent to have done approximately the same—whether the Minister would consider that was a successful outcome.

Hon JOHN BANKS: What we do know is that there is a long tail of people failing in the education system in this country—

Hon Trevor Mallard: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think you asked the Minister to address the question. He is a little way into an answer that has to do with the New Zealand situation and is not a response at all to the question.

Mr SPEAKER: Order! No, no. I think we have to allow the Minister the opportunity to answer the question. He started by addressing the current situation, and I hope he will move on to the research figures that were included in the member’s question.

Hon JOHN BANKS: We hear the research figures. If we were to rely on those research figures, then we would give up on the long tail of underachievement in the education system. What we do know is that the new Secretary for Education understands charter schools as they exist in the United Kingdom very, very well, and is supportive. What we do know is that we spend $7 billion per year on education for students up and down the country, and it is the students’ right to get a world-class education—

Grant Robertson: Does the Minister have the faintest idea what he’s talking about?

Hon JOHN BANKS: I say to the interjector that of the students who were entering the system when the member for Hutt South was the Minister of Education, one in five will leave school with no education. This Government is saying we cannot have one in five leaving school with no education. We are not going to take up the worst aspects of any overseas charter schools. We are going to adapt them to a New Zealand model that works for New Zealand kids, whom the front-bench member of the Opposition wants to see succeeding and achieving in education so that when they leave school they have the dignity of work. That is what we are going to do. It is going to work. Give it a go. Do not give up on it before we have tried it.

Mr SPEAKER: The Hon Nanaia Mahuta. [Interruption] Order! I want to hear the question. The Hon Nanaia Mahuta.

Hon Nanaia Mahuta: Is he aware that an independent study by the University of Michigan into the Knowledge is Power Program charter school model found that the Knowledge is Power Program’s improved performance was a result of cherry-picking the students most likely to succeed?

Hon JOHN BANKS: What we do know is that—

Hon Members: Oh!

Mr SPEAKER: Order! The Minister will resume his seat. I ask members not to interject before the Minister has even started his answer. But I say to the Minister that when a Minister starts with “What we do know”, it usually indicates that he or she has no intention of answering the question whatsoever, and it is not good enough. The question asked about a specific piece of research. The Minister may wish to acknowledge that he is not familiar with that piece of research. That is fine, but he should not go on to talk about something totally different. Usually, saying “What we do know” is an indication that it is going to be something totally different. Because time is passing, I invite the Hon Nanaia Mahuta to repeat her question.

Hon Nanaia Mahuta: Is he aware that an independent study by the University of Michigan into the Knowledge is Power Program charter school model found that the Knowledge is Power Program’s improved performance was a result of cherry-picking the students most likely to succeed?

Hon JOHN BANKS: I have not seen that piece of advice that talks about cherry-picking students. But what we want to do is we want to provide access to different ways of educating the 20 percent of young people who fall through the cracks, do not make it, and end up as statistics. What we do know also is that we have appointed a very able working-group to recommend the precise policy settings and learning from research that the member talks about, so that we do not make the same mistakes as have been made overseas. We will take the best of the research, and we will build on the information that we can gather together here, because we want this to succeed for the 20 percent of young people who fall through the cracks and end up as statistics. We are not going to give up on those young people.

Hon Nanaia Mahuta: Will charter schools be able to raise revenue, in addition to public funds, from individuals and corporates, and be accountable to their sponsors; if so, it is possible that Skycity could sponsor one of his charter schools, and how will this transform the long tail of underachievement?

Hon JOHN BANKS: As at Onehunga High School in Auckland, we want to make sure that, for our charter schools, the local community is involved, iwi are involved, church groups are involved, everyone interested is involved, families are involved, industry is involved, and commerce is involved. We have all got to take ownership of the fact of the matter, which is that 20 percent of our young people fail in the education system that that former Minister was associated with when she was in Government, and the member for Hutt South was the Minister and did nothing about it. We care about people who fall through the cracks. We are not worried about the 80 percent of people who achieve—

Mr SPEAKER: Order!

Hon Nanaia Mahuta: In light of the Minister’s answers, I seek leave to table two documents. The first document is the research report from Stanford University, which clearly shows that 37 percent of students do worse and 50 percent no better than students in public schools.

Mr SPEAKER: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.

• Document, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.

Hon Nanaia Mahuta: I seek leave to table the University of Michigan report into the Knowledge is Power Program charter school model, which shows that improved performance was linked to cherry-picking of students most likely to succeed.

Mr SPEAKER: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is no objection.

• Document, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.