Hon STEVE CHADWICK (Labour) : We are here to fight the good fight for those in Auckland who are unhappy with the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. This morning I will talk on a very serious issue; I think the Committee finished on a rather trivial note last night, with banter across the Chamber and a fair amount of screaming. I want to bring the debate back to the serious issue of Māori representation, and I want to make things clear. Last night I heard Hone Harawira say that Labour was sitting back on its hands and doing nothing about Māori representation. Well, I do not think Hone Harawira is a member of our Labour caucus, which debated this issue long and hard and which has always held firm to the need for Māori to be represented in this Auckland bill. Labour has always believed that Māori should have seats on the Auckland Council, like in Parliament itself. We have always supported the Māori seats in Parliament. The poor Māori Party over there has been trumped again by Rodney Hide, who has said that its voice does not matter, and that it can come up by means of other mechanisms through the Local Government Act. Well, the Local Government Act actually talks about social and cultural well-being, and we should go back to those fundamental tenets of the last raft of changes to the Local Government Act, which ensured that Māori, in the context of cultural and social well-being, had a voice on the council.

We also advocated for 25 seats on the Auckland Council. The current National-ACT Government is talking about only 20 seats, but we think that is bizarre, because it would mean that there are more MPs in Auckland than there are people on the Auckland City super-council.

Nikki Kaye: What about your local boards?

Hon STEVE CHADWICK: I say to Nikki Kaye that that is our position; we have always said there would be one plan. Last night Nikki asked whether we were against a unitary authority. We brought about these changes. We set up the Royal Commission on Auckland Governance. Labour led that action. We are pleased to be part of the next raft of reforms, but we would have done it very differently.

In the minority report we are very clear that we support Māori seats. I point out something to new members in the Chamber who think this is a trivial issue. I will talk about those who submitted to the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee. There were 287 submissions on separate Māori representation on the Auckland super-city council. Only 83 of those 287 submissions opposed Māori representation, which is 60 percent support. The Government is really very foolish to ignore that level of support. Although it says it has listened and made changes, it has skirted around this change. When Rodney Hide refused to support Māori representation on the super-city, he really trumped the Māori Party. He saw to it, and National supported this, that the good constituents of Rodney held greater weight than Māori in Auckland. Well, I think that issue will come back in the general election, after the local body elections in 2010. The issue will rise up and show the National Government that it has made a fundamental error. I mention that Mr Key said nothing was set in stone. Well, a trader—which is what Mr Key fundamentally was, by profession—would of course say that nothing was set in stone. Of course he said that National would keep the door open and keep considering the issue; he wants to appeal to everybody on all sides of the Chamber.

Another loser here is Mr Tau Henare, and I feel sorry for him. He tried to get support within his own party, which harks back to the support that Georgina te Heuheu was allowed to show in respect of the Bay of Plenty Regional Council (Maori Constituency Empowering) Act in 2001, when she was allowed to cross the floor to support that issue of Māori representation. It is interesting to see all the new members in the Chamber who think they know it all. They were not around in those days, when that context of the debate that Mita Ririnui brought to the House was very bitter. We heard a race-based debate in the Chamber in 2001 when National members, then in Opposition, made outrageous remarks asking why we needed Māori representation. They ignored the views of people like Judge Peter Trapski, who said that without Māori representation in the Chamber or any form of protection for them we would never get Māori views before the House. Look at what we have now with the Māori Party, the Māori MPs, and our Māori Labour MPs in the House. The new MPs forget that environment, where we broke the ice. Of course, it was Labour, again, that entrenched those seats on the Bay of Plenty Regional Council and allowed Georgina te Heuheu to cross the floor.

It was quite interesting to hear her say at the time: “The issue of representation for Māori in local government is a significant issue, and not just for Māori.” This is not an issue that we are asking just our Māori MPs to stand up and take a call on; it is one that we all must speak out on. “It has been around for a long time, as evidenced by a notice in the Auckland provincial government’s Gazette of Saturday, 6 May 1867, when J. Williamson, the superintendent of the Auckland Province, gave notice that he had appointed Paore Tuhaere of Ngāti Whātua to give advice to himself and the Auckland executive council on matters relating to the Māori people of the province of Auckland. It is a significant issue.” Tau Henare, Georgina te Heuheu, and other Māori MPs in National know that it is a significant issue. It will not go away. Georgina te Heuheu said herself that Māori will make sure that the issue of representation in any form of governance will not go away.

I believe that if John Key does not take cognisance of this, that issue will be the demise of the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill, which was a wonderful opportunity for reform. It was a wonderful opportunity, and Labour was behind it; Labour instigated the royal commission. The royal commission report itself said that there should be three Māori seats on the super-city council, but ACT, with Rodney Hide’s “one vote” mantra, has won the war with National. I find it absolutely astonishing that a coalition partner that sits with the local government portfolio—a major portfolio—outside of Cabinet can wield such power and influence over National.

This issue will not go away. We in Labour will make sure that this issue does not go away. We understand that the Māori Party members are put in a dreadful position here, but they have lost. They have been rolled by Rodney Hide, and if that is a mana-enhancing position for them, I think they will have a great deal of problems as a Māori Party to find their place in the sun and to find support when they go out in the next election. They have been rolled.

Paul Hutchison is another loser. I feel a bit sorry for Dr Paul Hutchison; boundary issues were a big issue for him. He will be rolled. I also think that Georgina te Heuheu must be hurting. She must have put up a fight in caucus, with Tau Henare, but she got rolled. The National Government is saying it has a mana-enhancing relationship with the Māori Party, and this is a major signal. This major initiative could have been so positive for all of Auckland and for other regions that are now looking at how they could reform local and regional council governance. An opportunity has been lost. We will be putting up further amendments that ensure statutory recognition of mana whenua on the Auckland Council.

This is a big issue. We will be supporting it, and I think the people of New Zealand will show that the Government got it wrong on this issue. It will come back to bite the Government, not next year in the local body elections, but—once we see that this rushed legislation has gone through—in the 2011 election. It is rushed legislation; here we are in urgency. When we look at major reform of local government in Australia, we see that it took 3 years to get it right. Why are we rushing through this reform just to get it in by 2010? This is the way that mistakes are made. It will come back to bite the Government in the 2011 election.

Hon RODNEY HIDE (Minister of Local Government) : I am sorry that Ms Chadwick’s speech presented the whole debate around Auckland, in terms of boundaries and Māori seats, as being all about political winners and losers, rather than being about trying to get the best result for Auckland. Let me explain the issues, and also claim a bottle of wine from Mr David Cunliffe, given his bet last night. I hope it is a decent bottle.

First of all, I pay my respects to the Māori Party members with regard to the way in which they have conducted themselves over this debate. It has been very, very difficult for them. Dr Pita Sharples has been a fantastic person to work with on this issue. I also criticise Labour. For 9 years Labour members never mentioned Māori seats on any Auckland council ever. I also point out that the issue has come before the various councils of Auckland—including Manukau City Council, Waitakere City Council, and North Shore City Council—and those councils have consistently voted down having Māori seats. I find Labour’s argument in favour of having Māori seats to be a case of crocodile tears, because for 9 years Labour did nothing. When the issue first came up from the Royal Commission on Auckland Governance, those members were deathly silent. Shane Jones went out and told everyone that Labour would never do the Māori seats, and it was only when the Māori Party became seized by the idea and there was a hīkoi that Labour came out in favour of having Māori seats.

Let me also deal with the issue. The royal commission came up with a proposal for seats from the general wards being Māori wards, and one mana whenua seat. There would be 20 councillors, with 10 of them elected at large. I note that although the Labour members say that we must follow the royal commission in all matters, they are very silent—

Phil Twyford: You supported Māori seats in Parliament.

Hon RODNEY HIDE: Yes, I did.

Phil Twyford: You supported entrenchment.

Hon RODNEY HIDE: Yes, I did.

Phil Twyford: Is that a principle?

Hon RODNEY HIDE: Yes.

Phil Twyford: Is that an ACT principle?

Hon RODNEY HIDE: Yes, and I will tell the member why. Poor Mr Twyford; let us just concentrate on Auckland. Let me explain this. We have 16 hours for the debate on the Committee stage of the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. If the member listens, he can then take a call and criticise my speech. Government members never called out when Steve Chadwick was giving her speech. If Mr Twyford listens, he can then take a call and explain why I am wrong and present his point of view.

The member should just let me explain the position on agreeing with the Māori Party on the entrenchment of Māori seats at the time of the election. There is a 75 percent entrenchment for the general seats, but there is only a 50 percent entrenchment for the Māori seats. Tariana Turia came to me at the time of the last election and asked me what I thought of that. I said that I was opposed to the Māori seats in Parliament in principle, but that if we are to have them, then the rules should be the same. I agreed with her and I said that consistently. I believe that is a consistent—

Phil Twyford: Dancing on the head of a pin—that’s what it is.

Hon RODNEY HIDE: Well, it is a consistent position and, unlike Mr Twyford, I have never changed my position.

We got to the point where the royal commission had advocated having two Māori seats and one mana whenua seat. We discussed that matter with Pita Sharples, and he came to the Cabinet committee and suggested that it did not go far enough and that there were questions about the electoral roll. We felt that, however one looked at it, we were trying to address the governance of Auckland, and that there was a separate issue about how to engage with Māori, and mana whenua and iwi, right across local government. Also, there was no consistent view at that time on how to provide for Māori seats, which made it quite difficult.

On 6 April Cabinet made the decision not to have Māori seats, and then Ngāti Whātua and Tainui proposed the idea of an electoral college. I would be very interested in Labour’s view of this, as to whether it supports Māori seats. I would be interested in Labour’s view as to whether it would agree with the proposal of Tainui and Ngāti Whātua, which then became the proposal to the Government, to have an electoral college that would decide, for two Māori seats, who was mana whenua. Candidates would put their names forward to the electoral college, and this college of wise heads would vet them as to their mana whenua status. If members think about it, they will see that if we are to have mana whenua we have to have a mechanism by which mana whenua can be identified, one way or another. It can be either by a certification process or by an external process. Of course, the concern always was mana whenua. The Māori Party pointed out that Māori who have come to Auckland are actually like everyone else: the concern was with the historical and cultural attachment to Auckland. That seemed to me as Minister, and to the Government, to be a very tough ask because there would be a non-elected group, if you like, deciding who could stand for a particular seat. The proposal from the Māori Party was, first of all, that all Māori on the Māori electoral roll could vote for the mana whenua candidate, and then, after feedback from other Ministers, the Māori Party suggested it could be from the general roll. That seemed to create its own problem, because we would then have candidates who were not answering to mana whenua or indeed to Māori but to everyone who was voting for them, and although they might be screened on the basis of their tribal affiliations, their voters would be coming more widely. This was not easy politics. It is not an easy issue. Whichever way we jump, people will be upset. It was a tough call.

Mr Cunliffe made a bet with me last night. The Prime Minister came to see me on 3 June to explore how Māori seats could be provided for, and I explained how it could be done and the various options that were on the table. I explained to him privately that the implication of doing that would be that I could not be in this chair—that National, the Māori Party, and the Labour Party could have the numbers but I could not be in this chair. I did not regard that as a threat. I never went public. It was an implication of the decision. When I went to Cabinet, contrary to what Mr Cunliffe said, I did not know which way it would go. In fact, I invited Dr Pita Sharples to give a joint Cabinet paper with me because I felt it was unfair for me to take his words and interpret them as my paper, and I wanted to put the best debate and argument before Cabinet and to take my chips accordingly.

But here is the issue. No one has denied Māori a seat at the council table—no one. In fact, there are five Māori councillors in Auckland now and two of them are deputy mayors. The analysis over the last 20 years shows that in Auckland Māori get elected roughly in proportion to the proportion that they stand for seats. That is, there is no systematic bias against Māori candidates, which I find quite remarkable. It concerns me, though, that if a mana whenua candidate is standing in a general ward, that candidate is actually responding to everyone in that ward, not just to Māori and not just to mana whenua. The candidate has to be broader in outlook. But in a way, from the point of view of the council, that seems to be an inclusive way of doing it. Certainly, when I visited Porirua City Council, which came out against Māori seats, that is precisely the way that council finds it to be. I would like to see the new council building up a good relationship so that specifically we can have a relationship with local iwi and mana whenua, but the idea of councillors representing, in an inclusive way, all of Auckland seems to be excellent to me.

I also do not have a dark view of Aucklanders, now or in the future—

Hon Tau Henare: What?

Hon RODNEY HIDE: —a dark view that they will somehow look at a person’s race, tribe, or skin colour and on that basis decide not to vote for that candidate. Certainly the evidence does not back that up. The Labour members are saying that somehow Aucklanders are racist. They are saying Aucklanders will not vote for a Māori candidate, because the candidate is Māori, so we have to have special seats, because Aucklanders are not reasonable people. Labour members are also saying, in my view, that Māori cannot succeed in a general seat. I think that is rubbish too. I understand the argument that a Māori succeeding in a general seat has to respond to the general concerns, but I do not believe that Māori will not get elected. My priority as Minister of Local Government is to get better engagement in local government. I think we are achieving that in this Government. We are letting local government get on and do it rather than having the ninth floor tell them what they can and cannot do.

I make this point too. Pita Sharples came to me late one night and we had some very, very good discussions. My respect for Dr Sharples grew enormously through this experience. He never raised his voice; he never got angry. He just discussed it with me. He asked me what would convince me to agree to Māori seats. I found that question very, very challenging, because in a way I had a strong principle that said no. I sat there and looked at him and told him that a good principle would do it. He asked what I meant. I said the principle that is driving me in this is that each person should have a vote of equal value, that every position should be open to a free and open contest, and that we should not have privileged or special seats decided by a tribe, the landed gentry, or powerful business. Yes, I understand that Māori have a 1,000-year connection to Auckland. But actually a long connection has been fought with blood and tears to allow Jack to be as good as his master politically: that every vote counts the same, that anyone can have a crack, and that anyone can get elected. It has a way of keeping our political power—so we say—somewhat humble and respectful. As soon as we allow a privilege—that is to say, a local tribe deciding who the candidate can be—we are powering up a privileged group in that they have a power given to them that no one else would have.

I said that that would be my principle and asked him what his would be. Dr Sharples said it would be two things: mana and achieving representation. Let us deal with representation, which is a serious issue in local government, not just for Māori, but for all groups. The issue came out yesterday, as the Associate Minister of Local Government pointed out, that I favour the single transferable vote and councillors elected at large, because I thought that would give us a more representative council.

Phil Twyford: Are you going to vote for it?

Hon RODNEY HIDE: I say to Phil Twyford that of course I will not vote for it. When the member has been here for a while, he will understand that there is such a thing as Cabinet collective responsibility.

Phil Twyford: What about your ACT colleagues?

Hon RODNEY HIDE: Gosh! He worries about my ACT colleagues. I would worry about the Labour caucus if I were him. I would worry about what Mr Phil Goff was up to, not about us.

The representation issue, I believe, is of concern not just to Māori. It is actually about representation of the various groups that make up a city or a region. The second issue was mana, and I agree with that. I believe that we face that challenge in local government and in central government, whether we like it or not. If we are to succeed as a country we will have to understand better the indigenous values, culture, and spiritualities.

Hon Lianne Dalziel: What happens if none are elected—not one Māori person on the entire Auckland Council? What happens then?

Hon RODNEY HIDE: I say to Ms Dalziel that I would like to be in this situation: oftentimes in a democracy we get results that we do not agree with—Heaven knows we had Helen Clark as Prime Minister for 9 years—but we can learn to live with it because we see it as a fair and open process. That is what is important. I know that the Labour members love gerrymandering elections to get a result they would like.

Hon Lianne Dalziel: Answer the question.

Hon RODNEY HIDE: The member will get the opportunity to speak. I am answering her question if she lets me. We have a system whereby, yes, we often get results that we do not like, but the great thing is that we can accept the process. I know that the Labour members love to screw this round and say that they want a Chinese person, so we should have a Chinese seat. They would like their candidate, Len Brown, to be the candidate for mayor, so they will screw the seat. They would like their member to stay as Prime Minister, so they will take some taxpayers’ money. I say this: at the end of the day—

Hon Lianne Dalziel: What does it say for the Treaty relationship?

Hon RODNEY HIDE: I say to Ms Dalziel that it says two things—I am getting a lot of heckling from the Labour caucus. The Treaty actually says in article 1 that there is one Sovereign, in article 2 that there is respect for property rights, and in article 3 that there is equal citizenship. That is exactly what the ACT Party stands for. That is exactly what we are promoting. As regards the ACT Party being the “1 percent party”, or whatever, I say that actually the Government and Parliament are deciding this, not the ACT Party. I am sorry that Labour members are not used to being in Opposition, but they will get used to it over the next 20 years.

Finally, I say that it is open to any council to have Māori seats any time they choose. I note that Labour’s candidate, Len Brown, is standing to be the mayor of the new Auckland Council, before we have even passed the legislation.

SUE BRADFORD (Green) : One of the critical areas where the Government has got it wrong with this legislation is in relation to the voting system. The Green Party and many other individuals and organisations in Auckland strongly believe that it is absolutely vital that the single transferable vote system (STV) be used from the time of next year’s local body elections. I have an amendment in front of the Committee to that effect, and I encourage all other parties to consider supporting it, including ACT and the honourable Minister Rodney Hide, who has just repeated again that he does actually support STV.

The Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill as it stands adopts the first-past-the-post system for the election of the mayor, councillors, and local board members. I propose that we use STV instead for all three categories.

It is a real pity that a majority on the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee went with first past the post, as progress towards the super-city presents us all with a prime opportunity to provide much better democratic processes for Auckland, rather than sticking with an old system that has mostly failed minority interests. For example, we were told during the select committee hearings that no Māori person has ever been elected on to the Auckland City Council in its entire history. What an indictment on the voting processes used to date, and on the power of Pākehā wealth and privilege that has allowed this to happen. This is a true relic of our colonial past. Using first past the post for the new arrangements will serve only to help maintain that power and privilege at a time when not only Māori but also other so-called minority groups, such as Pasifika and Asian peoples, are becoming a greater and greater proportion of our city’s population. Lianne Dalziel asked the Minister a very good question just before: what happens if there are no Māori councillors on the entire council? That is totally possible if we continue with the first-past-the-post voting system.

The single transferable vote system is a far more democratic way of ensuring that all citizens will have their voices heard and their representatives elected. The majority of those who made submissions to the select committee on this question of voting systems supported STV. STV ensures that elected candidates, while not necessarily being the preferred candidate of the majority of voters, at least have majority support. It works by voters ranking candidates in order of preference—one, two, three, and so on—with the candidate with the lowest number of votes being eliminated and that candidate’s votes, showing second preferences and so on, being transferred to other candidates until the quota is reached.

For example, with STV the new Mayor of Auckland could be voted in only with the majority of voters’ preferences—that is, with at least 50 percent plus 1—and not by a minority of voters, which could happen very easily under first past the post. We are talking about one of the most powerful positions in the whole country. It is very important that we get it right. What could happen under the first past the post system, for example, is a result like the one that happened in the Rodney District mayoral election in 2007, when the mayor was elected with the support of just over 20 percent of the voters and with less than 10 percent of registered electors declaring their active support for that candidate.

Given that the Government has made the outrageous decision to refuse to allow guaranteed Māori seats on the new council, it is even more critical that we have STV to maximise tangata whenua participation and representation. Although STV is at times derided because it is slightly more complex than first past the post, there is no evidence that is has discouraged voter participation in other areas like Wellington, where it has been used for local body elections.

The Green Party believes that in the longer term STV may well increase voter participation as voters not only come to understand how the system works in practice but also see that it provides more legitimacy to local government by providing representatives who more truly typify their interests and aspirations. STV is fair, because it is proportional. It is positive, because nobody’s vote is wasted. It is representative, allowing greater diversity among those elected.

This legislation is the biggest change in local government arrangements ever made in this country, at least that I know of. The Government is manifestly proud of what it is trying to accomplish. I challenge National and ACT to think again on the question of STV. I understand that National is genuinely keen to make the most of this dramatic new arrangement for Auckland. Why not use the best possible voting system right from the start, rather than sticking with a process that is a poor second-best?

Hon TAU HENARE (National) : I was going to start with some comments on the Hon Steve Chadwick’s speech, but I think I will go back to front and comment on my friend and colleague Sue Bradford about the single transferable vote (STV). She has laudable principles around proportional representation—and I think everybody in the House enjoys proportional representation—but for her to say that STV will be some sort of panacea to the issue of Māori representation is bit wide of the mark. I say that because the introduction of STV in our district health board elections was supposed to give us a lot of Māori, Pacific Island, and other representation, but it has not delivered in terms of Māori representation. That is the issue that I have in the back of my mind, which is that in terms of Māori representation we have not yet found what I think is a system that maximises proportional representation. I do not think we will have it with STV.

To go backwards, I think that there is some history that people ought to know about Māori seats in general, in terms of where they came from. They were ostensibly to shut down Māori participation in our new democracy in the 1870s. They were not there because somebody felt sorry for Māori. They were there because Māori were the largest landowners, and it was only landowners who could vote in our new country way back in the 1870s.

Hon Lianne Dalziel: I think you’ve got that slightly wrong, Tau.

Hon TAU HENARE: Pardon me?

Hon Lianne Dalziel: I think you’ve got that slightly wrong, because they were collective landowners.

Hon TAU HENARE: OK. I have it wrong. Gee, how terrible of me! I have actually got it wrong, I am being told by that member, who has had a Māori seat and who understands the whole issue of Māori representation! But that is OK. Silly me! I thought I had something to say, but maybe not.

I suppose therein lies the problem with the Labour Party. Its members love continually to lecture other people about the issue of representation.

Hon Lianne Dalziel: What is your problem?

Hon TAU HENARE: Let me tell that unfortunate member. The issue of Māori representation was that Māori had the right to vote because they were all landowners. It does not matter whether they were collective landowners; that is splitting hairs. The fact of the matter is that for a long, long time—right up until 1938—when Māori elected their representatives to the House of Representatives they did it by a voice vote. They were not even allowed to have a secret ballot. Up until 1938 people would go along to the polling booth and verbally tell the registrar whom they wanted to vote for. The first time that Māori had the choice to partake in a secret ballot was in 1938.

There is a lot of crowing about the 2001 local government legislation, and I want to put on record that the genesis for that actually came from the Hon Tuariki Delamere. He was a former Minister of Immigration. It was he who introduced to the House the genesis for the 2001 legislation.

Hon MITA RIRINUI (Labour) : Thank you, Mr Chair—

Hon Tau Henare: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I am not saying that I should get a call before my colleague, but the Minister got three calls in succession. I can understand that. I know that the rules say he can have up to four, I think. But I think it is a wee bit on the nose that the Minister got three calls in a row, and little old poor me gets only one, halfway through—

The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker): I say to the member that whether he is little, poor, old, or whatever it is, is irrelevant. All members stand before the Chair as equals. The member himself has had three calls in this debate, and when I had a flick down my record I saw that the Hon Mita Ririnui has had none. The House has a fine tradition of giving new speakers priority over those who have had several calls. That is the tradition. The final point I make to the member is that the right to decide who has the call rests with the Chair, the Chair alone, and it is undisputed. As in football, I have never yet seen a decision by the ref overturned by a good argument. I make the point to the member that he will never see a point of order in this House overturn a call, so do not make that point again.

Hon Tau Henare: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I think you did not hear me right. I was not disputing the fact that Mita Ririnui was given the call; I did not say that I should be before him.

The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker): I do not want to prolong this, but I say to the member that he has been here long enough. If the member takes a point of order on the calls, he is, by implication, clearly challenging the Chairperson’s decision. There can be no other reason for doing it. I called Mita Ririnui and I explained to the member so that the member got some of my thinking as to why I did that. I restate the point that the member has had three calls in this debate and Mita Ririnui has had none. I think it is only fair that members who have not had a call in this debate should have one. That is the end of the matter; I do not want any more points of order on this.

Hon MITA RIRINUI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, for that fine ruling.

The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker): Members are not supposed to refer back to the Chair’s rulings.

Hon MITA RIRINUI: Pardon me. I actually want to thank the Hon Tau Henare for his contribution to the debate. There was not much about his speech that I agreed with, but I think one point he made he was actually quite accurate on, which was his views on the single transferable vote (STV) system. The member made the point that regardless of the fact that STV is adopted in our local district health board elections, not one Māori has been elected through that process. That needs to be pointed out in the Committee. In the first round of district health board elections no Māori were elected, and I think in the last round maybe one or two were elected. That is not a very good average. I thank the Hon Tau Henare also for his recall of the history of Māori representation in Parliament. I was hoping he would talk about the journey he spoke about when he took a call last night.

Hon Tau Henare: Well, I didn’t get the call, did I?

Hon MITA RIRINUI: Well, the member had plenty of time to touch on the matter but he never took the opportunity. The member talked about taking the people of Auckland—1.25 million people—on a journey. They had not signed up or bought tickets to go on the journey, but they would have been dragged along anyway. Of those people going on the journey, 135,000 happened to be Māori, but the journey had no destination. The member would not tell us the destination. It is no wonder that there are issues around Māori representation on the Auckland super-city council.

I have a lot of respect for the member. He was a very fine Minister of Māori Affairs; he certainly knew his job. However, he should be consistent in his views. He expressed a very strong view against the Minister of Local Government, Rodney Hide. I wondered to myself what it is about the word “Rodney” that sends fear through the National Government. Every time Rodney makes a statement, the Government wants to comply. When Rodney District Council protested about the northern boundaries, the Government listened. National members spent so many hours in the Chamber last night trying to convince themselves that they listened throughout this whole process. The problem is that they cannot convince the people of Auckland of that. The people of Auckland are waiting for the Minister of Local Government to front up and tell them why he did not listen to them.

I heard a number of National speakers in the Chamber last night make the point that the Government listened. The only person who made some relevant points around the consultation process over the last few months was the Hon Tau Henare. But he was given an impossible mission. It was his responsibility to go out, take charge, and facilitate a process to hear submissions from Māori communities. He did a very good job, a very fine job, and a very thorough job, but National did not tell him that it did not really matter because the decision had been made. So Tau Henare launched an attack on the Minister of Local Government—and rightly so. I know he has not changed his mind, but he is a loyal member and he has signed up to the arrangements that the Government has entered into with the ACT Party. That being the case, the Hon Tau Henare will live by the decision of the Government.

I wonder about the so-called process the Government adopted in terms of the Auckland Council. According to the Government the process does not wander far from the process we used in respect of the Bay of Plenty Regional Council issues on Māori representation. The consultation process on that matter was thorough. It actually took 9 years, not 9 months. The Bay of Plenty councillors travelled to every corner of the electorate and even contracted a retired District Court judge, Peter Trapski, to conduct the hearings. To cut a long story short, the report back to the council recommended the establishment of a Māori constituency, based on the same formula for the selection of wards as that adopted by central government for determining the number of Māori seats in Parliament. Following a very long debate at the local level for the Bay of Plenty and Waiariki, the bill covered the tribal confederations of Te Arawa, Mataatua, parts of Tainui, Horouta, and probably even further than that.

Something like 300 hapū were involved in the consultation rounds. That is a pretty overwhelming statistic when one thinks about it. As a result of that, I, as the member for Waiariki at the time, introduced the Bay of Plenty Regional Council (Maori Constituency Empowering) Bill to the House. It was then that we became aware of the anti-Māori views of the Minister of Local Government, the Hon Rodney Hide. I heard his speech this morning—he took three calls—and I will go back to the Hansard later on today, because what he said today is exactly what he said then. He is fundamentally ideologically opposed to Māori representation at any level. I wonder what it is about his stance on Māori representation that has not sunk in for the Māori members of the National Government. I wonder what it is about his position on Māori representation that has not sunk into the minds of the Māori Party members. I say to my whanaunga from Ngāti Rangiwewehi, Te Arawa, that this is an opportunity for that member to stand up in this House and challenge the Government and the Minister of Local Government. He should tell the Government what the people of Waiariki think about the actions and decisions of the Minister of Local Government.

I challenge the member for Waiariki, because during my term as the member for Waiariki, he challenged me many times; I did not mind that. He challenged me on my stand on the foreshore and seabed issue. I chose not to run away; I chose to stay and fight the fight. I chose to take on the hard stuff, not like others who refuse to stay and fight. I say to the member for Waiariki that this is the opportunity, and I will give him all the help he requires, because he will need it.

I also heard the Minister of Local Government say he had a number of meetings with the Minister of Māori Affairs. What he said about that meeting, and what the Minister of Māori Affairs said publicly, varied quite considerably. I wonder whether the Minister of Māori Affairs should have stayed at home and sent the member for Waiariki instead, because the outcome might have been different, and it might have been better. To accompany him, he should have taken the member for Tai Tokerau, Hone Harawira. I know that Rodney Hide would not have patronised those two members. He would not have redefined their mana-enhancing philosophy. That is exactly what the Minister of Local Government did in respect of the Auckland legislation. He rolled them. He convinced them that what he was about to do was good for them. He told them that, in terms of Māori representation, they are equal to everybody else. Well, the statistics say otherwise. What is it about the matter that he does not understand?

Tau Henare said that STV has never produced strong Māori representation—or any Māori representation at all. I got the impression that he was saying he was still in favour of designated Māori seats. He gave no other example apart from STV, and his stand on the Minister’s decision on Māori seats seems to be well positioned. I wish he would get up in the House and reiterate that. I know that my whanaunga from Ngāti Tūwharetoa, the Hon Georgina te Heuheu, is not happy with this. She is very unhappy with this. I have heard her take a number of calls in the Parliament over the last few weeks and indirectly oppose the Government’s stand on Māori representation for Auckland City. I know that on the marae 2 weeks ago she again indirectly opposed the Government’s decision. What is it about my whanaunga from Ngāti Awa that prevents them from taking the same stand, getting up in the House and taking a call, like the rest of us, and expressing honest opinions about the lack of consideration for Māori representation?

It is interesting that during the Bay Of Plenty Regional Council consultation rounds, the number of submissions made was, I understand, 278, and in the electorate there were 287. The difference here is that probably about 1 percent were opposed, from the normal groups.

NIKKI KAYE (National—Auckland Central) : We have heard a lot about Māori representation today, but I would like to focus on the matter of the local boards of Auckland Council. They are at the heart of the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill and I think it is really important that we start looking at some of the provisions that relate to them. You see, Labour members have stood up today and confirmed that they support a unitary authority, but the Labour Party has shifted significantly in terms of the number of local boards it wants. Mr Twyford came out at the beginning of the process and said Labour wanted six to 12, but when Labour members started to go around the communities of Auckland, they realised that, actually, the only party that was campaigning to get rid of communities by advocating six to 12 local boards was in fact the Labour Party. Many members on the opposite side of the Chamber—and I know this for a fact—then said to their members on the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee that there was no way they would support having only six to 12 local entities. So Labour members changed their position and moved to advocating 10 to 12. They shifted further—they wanted 14 to 20 boards, and that is the position in the report.

I have a question for Mr Hawkins, who is sitting in the back row opposite. There is a campaign within Papakura called “Save Papakura”. Under the Labour Party model we do not know whether Papakura would have a local board. So Mr Hawkins will have to stand up and defend the Labour Party’s position with regard to local boards. I believe that the Labour Party supports having a unitary authority and close to 20 local boards. If Labour actually supports only 14 boards, then I would like some of the Labour members across the Chamber to stand up and say whether they support 14 or 20. But, you know, we will not hear that because Labour members support having 20 local boards. So we are here, on a historic day for Auckland, and the members opposite actually support the majority of this legislation. Labour does have some issues with a few things such as Māori representation, but Labour members, rather than supporting the legislation they actually believe in—for an event people have been waiting for for 50 years—prefer to sit on the sideline and not support this bill, a bill that will be good for Auckland.

The other major inconsistency in the Labour Party’s position is around the number of councillors. In Labour’s minority report, which I will quote back to them, they say they are concerned and would like to have more councillors so that they represent smaller areas. How does that match Labour’s local board policy? It is totally inconsistent. We are hearing inconsistency from the opposite side of the Chamber, and that is why this debate is dragging on. People listening are hearing about everything but the majority of the content of the bill. Labour members have travelled around Auckland and realised that the writing is on the wall. There are many communities that want to be represented and want local boards, and Labour members have realised they had to shift their position. Labour members want a unitary authority, and their minority report is filled with inconsistencies, like their position on councillors. I will stop talking about the Labour Party, because I think everyone knows that Labour members are standing up and opposing this bill for political reasons only, not because of what is best for Auckland.

This is a historic day for Auckland. National and ACT have listened. We have gone to the people of Auckland and listened to them in a 2-year process that was started by the previous Government. To those members opposite who argue that there should be a referendum, I say that the royal commission said that that would be a very superficial thing to happen. We have spent 2 years debating this. We have an 800-page report; 3,500 submissions went to the royal commission; and 2,500 submissions have been received by the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee. What would it have taken for the Labour Party to actually make a decision on this? Well, it would not have made a decision. Labour members are indecisive. That has been shown by their consistently shifting position regarding the number of local boards. It is shown by their inconsistent position on the number of councillors. Labour did not have the guts to make a decision in the 9 years it spent in Government. National is here and it is making a decision. Yes, it is very hard. Issues of Māori representation are very hard. Yes, we may not get it completely right. But there have been 2 years of consultation and a lot of money has been spent.

Hon GEORGE HAWKINS (Labour—Manurewa) : First of all, I tell Nikki Kaye, the member who has just resumed her seat, that many people would prefer that the community boards had some real teeth, and that they were not paupers having to go along to their super-council to get funding. This is one of the problems: they do not have any staff. Nikki Kaye wants to know where we stand on the issue. Well, the Mayor of North Shore stated: “Hearings of the Auckland Council Bill promised the Auckland public their big chance to have a say, yet the upshot is an all powerful super Auckland Council, a super Mayor with even more than before, 20 to 30 completely powerless local boards with no statutory powers or resources in their own right,”. That is why we do not support those bodies at all.

Nikki Kaye: That’s not in your minority report.

Hon GEORGE HAWKINS: We had to deal with the legislation that was put before the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, and that person has not learnt.

I will talk about the Māori situation. I wonder what actually happened when members were called to the Cabinet meeting. ACT’s Rodney Hide was there. Then, of course, there was Dr Sharples. What did they say? Why did John Key and the Auckland Cabinet Ministers tell them that Rodney Hide had won and Pita Sharples had lost? What was said? What is the basis for this decision?

What was Nikki Kaye told in the caucus about that? She can sit there smiling; I bet she did not get up and challenge John Key one little bit. She would not have got up and had a go. The little parrot from Tauranga would not have said anything, either. He would not have said a thing.

At least Tau Henare is prepared to speak out. He was prepared to call people buffoons, and that rang a real bell with all Aucklanders. You see, Tau Henare is an interesting guy. The only people who do not like him are members of his own party. That is the truth.

We have the situation where we have someone just recently out of high school, who has not been around for a long time, come into the Chamber and not tell people what went on to make Cabinet back Rodney Hide. Why did John Key back him? What does Rodney Hide have over John Key that Dr Pita Sharples does not? That is the real key.

You see, Māori people were badly served. Was this issue debated in the caucus? No, National will not debate those sorts of things. Like little lambs, its members go along to a caucus meeting and listen and they are told what to think. They are not allowed to think for themselves. I can remember going to Cabinet meetings and then going to Labour caucus meetings, and sometimes the caucus was very, very vocal. But that is not the case in respect of National. It has a system whereby when Cabinet makes up its mind and when John Key tells its members what to think, then that is what they think.

The Māori people of Auckland have been sold down the river, because those members will not stand up for them. We have people like Nikki Kaye who have done the arithmetic and found that there are hardly any Māori on Waiheke Island. There is not a great percentage of Māori in the population there, so is she worried about them? No, not at all. All she wanted there was someone to make sure that the footpaths were not changed from white concrete to red concrete. That is what she was on about; those are the realities.

When Nikki Kaye finds that the going gets tough, she should not try to blame the Opposition for the decisions of a Government that is out of touch with ordinary Aucklanders. Ordinary Aucklanders will punish her, and they will punish other members. If I was Paula Bennett, with a majority of 635, I would be very worried.

TE URUROA FLAVELL (Māori Party—Waiariki) : Mr Chairman, kia ora tātau katoa i tēnei ata. I te tuatahi me mihi rā ki te hunga o roto i a au, i a Te Arawa i tēnei rangi, ngā taiohi e whakataetae nei i te āhuatanga o Te Manu Kōrero. He kaupapa nui e hāngai tonu ana ki tēnei kaupapa i te rangi nei.

• [An interpretation in English was given to the House.]

[Greetings to us all this morning, Mr Chairman. Firstly, I acknowledge today Te Arawa and the young ones taking part in Te Manu Kōrero speech competitions, a great event that relates directly to this matter.]

Āe, nō reira rā kia ora tātou katoa. One thing I remember about the Committee stage of the Local Government (Auckland Reorganisation) Bill was the voting pattern. Our voting procedure, for one reason or another, found us all of a sudden speaking Māori in this Chamber on a regular basis. Funnily enough, I have not heard that pattern repeated since that day, so I hope that in the context of Māori seats we might think about our voting patterns and the broader issues in respect of te reo Māori. That is the first issue.

The second issue is that I was ready to give a lot of kudos to my relation from Ngāti Ngāraranui the Hon Mita Ririnui, because, in fact, the bill that he spoke about—the bill that he ushered through this Parliament in 2001 on the issue of Māori representation on the Bay of Plenty Regional Council—set the scene for what the Māori Party believes is a great pattern to be used throughout the country. The downside is that no one has picked that pattern up, which I suppose is, in a sense, symbolic of what might happen with this particular bill, the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. It sets a scene and it sets a precedent, but it all depends on whether people are willing to follow it. I was not here when Mita Ririnui’s bill was being debated, but I heard about the background: the debate was 9 years ago, and there were battles in this Chamber in respect of Māori representation. Although there might have been a scrap about the bill, in the end the theory was that it would set a precedent for the country. But that did not happen. It has not happened to date; in fact, Māori representation was almost got rid of not long ago and cut back to two seats. Now it has stayed the same.

One thing I hope that this country comes to grips with is that it is OK to have Māori representation. I ask people not to be scared and not to worry; we are not going to take over the country—just yet. People do not have to be scared about it. Māori people actually have some good ideas to contribute to this country, and local body seats are one way of doing that, if we only get a shot at getting in. That is the problem. The practical experience of Māori people in this country finding a place on local bodies is not too hot. In fact, the Hon Tau Henare—for one reason or another, when it came out in public about how he was thinking on this particular issue—highlighted the experience by talking about the record for Auckland; eight seats, I think it was. Māori have been elected on to the board eight times. That is all good. Rodney Hide stood up in the Chamber this morning and said it can be done. It can be done, but it relies on so many things. There is the catch.

I know that I will probably take a couple of calls on this bill during the course of the day, but I just put in a good word for Tau Henare, Mr Chair. He is trying hard to get a call and I am sure you will think of him in the future.

To try to set the scene for our other comments I will kick off by saying that on the eve of the Auckland-Northland Local Government New Zealand meeting at Manukau City on 28 August, councillor Richard Northey—a former member of Parliament, I believe, and the chair of the Local Government New Zealand Zone 1—made a statement that I hope all members will heed. He said: “For the supercity to have a chance of working it is crucial it has the confidence of all significant sectors of Auckland, particularly Maori.” That is what he said. Auckland Māori have said in no uncertain terms that they need Māori seats in order to gain the assured, authentic voice of Māori at the top table of Auckland governance, and that they need to have confidence in the new Auckland Council. It was Mr Northey who raised the lousy record of Auckland voters in electing only eight Māori to the Auckland City Council throughout its long, 138-year history. I can say, because I am a teacher, that that is an average of one Māori appointed every 17 years. Despite my relation the Hon Mita Ririnui saying that the Māori Party members have not been, he should know that we have been in there from the start. He knows that, so I am not too sure why he mentioned that kōrero. We have not been able to support this bill, because it simply does not provide for Māori representation in the governance structure of the proposed Auckland City.

At the first reading of the bill the Māori Party raised a number of points in support of dedicated seats. We said that it was a specific recommendation of the Royal Commission on Auckland Governance, that it was consistent with current provisions in the Local Government Act 2002, and that dedicated Māori seats uphold the partnership relationship established between Māori and the Crown through the Treaty of Waitangi, including the partnership established with mana whenua of Auckland. This position has been underscored by the many public submissions received by the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, which has been examining the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill, with the report noting that substantial support was received for reserved seats for Māori.

That was some background to the bill, but I want to catch up on a few statements made by the Hon Rodney Hide. He talked about principle. I suppose the bigger principle that I am asking about, that the Māori Party is asking about—and, indeed, I hear Labour asking about—is whether we accept the notion against the background of Te Tiriti o Waitangi that it is appropriate that Māori have a say as of right on a city council. That is the issue. Do we accept that principle? Mr Hide is a principled man, and that is the principle we should be talking about, not “special seats”, as he termed it. We are not asking for special seats; we are asking for our seats—mana whenua seats that acknowledge the connection of Māori of Tāmaki-makau-rau to the land. That is what we are talking about. That is not a privilege; surely it is a right. Te Tiriti o Waitangi is all about rights and obligations. He actually quoted from Te Tiriti o Waitangi, which was nice. The downside was that it was the English version. If he had looked at the Māori version—

David Garrett: Which one? There’s more than one.

TE URUROA FLAVELL: That is correct, and that is the point I am making. If he had looked at the Māori version, he would know that it is quite significantly different.

David Garrett: There’s more than one Māori version.

TE URUROA FLAVELL: Yes, and they all line up. They all line up. That is fine. We will hear from the Treaty expert shortly, if he wishes to take a call!

In rounding up, I say that in Rotorua it is all fine to talk about Māori representation when it happens, but the problem is that there are too many ifs and probably a lot of buts. The problem is that unless one has a profile and unless one puts up the big dollars, there is no way in hell that Māori will find a seat on a district council. We must remember that the ones who are there in Rotorua represent everybody, for goodness’ sake! They are not Māori representatives; in fact, they would probably get killed off because they do not go in hard enough on Māori representation. Yet our people want to have their say. Why? Because they are linked to that land, they are linked to that area. There is their whakapapa. That is what we are talking about in this bill, and we want to add to the discussion later on with some significant Supplementary Order Papers that will, hopefully, draw a line in the sand in respect of how we view this whole discussion.

I know very much that my time is up, Mr Chairman, and that I probably will not get three calls in a row as I am not yet a Minister, but be that as it may, I am sure that you will look kindly on us throughout the rest of the day. Kia ora tātou.

KELVIN DAVIS (Labour) : Tēnā koe, Chairman Roy. Tuatahi māku, e hiahia ana ki te tautoko i ngā kōrero o tērā o ngā whanaunga mō Te Manu Kōrero e tū ana i roto o Te Arawa i tēnei rangi. Tuarua, e tautoko ana i ngā kōrero mō te tuituiatanga o te reo rangatira ki roto i ā tātou kōrero i roto i tēnei Whare. Tuatoru, tautoko ana ahau i te kōrero a te whanaunga rā mō tōna pātai e pā ana ki ngā tūru Māori nei i roto i te tāone nui o Tāmaki-makau-rau; e mataku ana te Kāwanatanga i te aha?

• [An interpretation in English was given to the House.]

[Greetings to you, Mr Chairman. First, I want to endorse what that relative said about Te Manu Kōrero in Te Arawa today, Secondly I support the interweaving of the chiefly language in our speeches in this Parliament, and thirdly, I support that relative’s statement pertaining to his question about Māori seats in the super-city of Auckland; what is the Government afraid of?]

Previously when I have spoken in the House I have spoken about the Treaty of Waitangi being a bridge that crosses over a river. On one bank is the Māori world, and on the other bank is the Pākehā world, and the Treaty of Waitangi is the bridge that crosses over the river. It allows people from one side to cross over and engage in the life, customs, culture, and language of the other side. The question is who has crossed the bridge more often. Certainly, just about every Māori I know has crossed over the bridge into the Pākehā world and speaks the language, goes to the schools, and understands the culture and customs. But how many times have Pākehā crossed the other way and become familiar with our language, our customs, and our culture? The answer is very few—very few.

I endorse what Te Ururoa Flavell just said when he asked what the Government is scared of in terms of crossing that bridge. What is the Government scared of? Māori do not really want to have a big takeover of New Zealand and to make everyone wear piupius and live in nīkau whare. That is not what we are about. We simply want to be able to engage at a governance level. Be it in the country or be it in Tāmaki-makau-rau, the city of Auckland, we want to be able to engage as of right, so that we can help people on the Pākehā side of the river to cross over the bridge and come to understand us as a people and as a culture.

I listened to the debate last night and I want to debunk a bit of a myth that flowed through all the speeches. The myth is that the National Government is listening. We heard it last night from Nikki Kaye. She stood up, pointed her finger, tapped her bench, raised her voice, and told us: “We are listening. We are listening. We are listening.” Simon Bridges was the same; he jumped up and said: “We are listening. We are listening. We are listening.” The Hon John Carter, aside from running interference for Rodney Hide, deflecting a lot of the criticism of Rodney Hide, stood up and said: “We are listening. We are listening. We are listening.” The Hon Dr Jonathan Coleman said: “We are listening. We are listening. We are listening.” It is as if one says it long enough and loud enough, it will become true.

National members got into cars in Auckland and drove up the motorway to the Rodney District. They had said that they would cut the Rodney District in half. We must remember that this was at the eleventh hour, before the bill came back to the House to be debated. In fact, it was not at the eleventh hour; it was at about half past 11, or probably 5 to 12. Those members went up there and they realised that they had made a mistake. So they back-pedalled, they backtracked, they flip-flopped, and they said: “Oops! We have made a mistake. All these people might not vote for us.” It was a political decision. They did a flip-flop, they changed their minds, then they wondered how to put a positive spin on it. They decided to say that they had listened, that they had been listening. If I can say one thing positive about National, it is that it knows how to put a spin on something. It repeats it over and over again, but it is still spin. It is spin.

I have a two-word reply to the National Government, if it is genuine about saying that it listened. That two-word reply is “Māori seats”. I ask Nikki Kaye where the Māori seats are in Tāmaki-makau-rau. I ask Simon Bridges where the Māori seats are in Tāmaki-makau-rau. Where were those members when 7,000 of us walked in the hīkoi? Where were those members when 7,000 of us marched up Queen Street? [Interruption] They like to put another spin on it, asking where Shane Jones and Parekura Horomia were. They make fun of our colleagues who were strategising over a McSalad. Where were members opposite when Pita Sharples stood up in front of 7,000 Māori and said: “Keep going, keep going, the Government is about to crack.”? I was there when he said that. I heard him say that the Government is about to crack. There is nothing like raising expectations to dampen the party.

Those 7,000 Māori and 300 submitters to the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee said they wanted Māori seats on the Auckland Council. But the Government has not listened to Māori. Why not? Because there are no votes in it for National. That is why it has not listened. The Government listens only when there is something in it for the Government. Māori have not been listened to.

This is a Treaty issue, as Te Ururoa Flavell has said. The Treaty is about a partnership. Where is the partnership in the Auckland City debate? There is no partnership. This issue is about a group of people saying to Māori: “Sorry, you don’t have a voice. You don’t have a say. ” We are meant to be grateful that the Auckland City Council has had one Māori city councillor every 17 years. I can almost hear people saying: “What are you Māori moaning about? One city councillor every 17 years? You should be grateful. You’re lucky that you’ve had one Māori voice every 17 years. Know your place, Māori.” That is what we are hearing. One Māori city councillor every 17 years on the Auckland City Council is a disgrace. This bill is an opportunity to rectify that. It is an opportunity to show that the National Government’s new-found love affair with Māoridom is genuine. It is an opportunity to show that the rhetoric is more than empty, hollow words.

I ask Nikki Kaye how hard she argued in her caucus for Māori seats, if she is genuine about saying she is listening to Māori. The member for Auckland Central pointed her finger, tapped her desk, raised her voice, and said: “We’re listening.” It is spin. We want Māori seats; we have said from the start that we want Māori seats. As my colleague Steve Chadwick said, our caucus spoke at length about Māori seats. We have wanted them from the start. I stood in a Māori seat. Labour supports the Māori seats. There is no argument beyond that.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak. Saying “We are listening. We are listening. We are listening.” is spin. This is about the Treaty of Waitangi. Where is the partnership? Where is the Māori voice on the Auckland Council?

DAVID GARRETT (ACT) : This is my first speech on this bill, and I want to touch on two aspects: firstly, the number of councillors and the need for the super-city as a whole; and, secondly, the topical question of Māori representation.

I will comment firstly on the matter of the numbers. Just by coincidence, I was lobbied—that would be the fair term—by the Rodney District Council some months ago in an attempt to keep that authority as a unitary authority. By coincidence again, during the previous week I had had an email from a Kiwi living in Melbourne, who informed me that the population of Greater Melbourne—3.8 million—manages quite well, thank you very much, with seven councillors. The Rodney District Council has 12 councillors plus the mayor.

Just yesterday I had the pleasure of meeting with an American delegation of young, up-and-coming political leaders, one of whom is a council-woman, or commissioner as they are called, from Miami-Dade County in Florida. She and the other delegation members were very interested in the super-city proposal. It turns out that for a population of 2.2 million, the Miami-Dade council functions perfectly well with 12 councillors. Our city of Auckland has half that population and we are proposing to have 20 councillors, and the Labour Party thinks we should have more. It is interesting that our councillors are apparently so poor in quality that they need twice as many in number, as compared with Florida. I suspect that is not the case.

The second major issue is, of course, the Māori seats. When I visited the Rodney District Council a couple of months ago, I had a meeting with the mayor and the deputy mayor, whose name I regret I cannot recall—his surname, anyway. He is a Māori guy by the name of John, and he spoke extremely passionately at the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee hearing, which I attended, in Silverdale a couple of months ago. He gave probably the most passionate presentation I heard that day, and probably the most passionate presentation I have heard in my short time as a member of Parliament and as a member of a select committee.

He also made the point that there was no self-interest for him, because he was not standing again for the council, if I recall correctly. The point I am making is probably quite obvious. Here is a Māori guy who is deputy mayor in an area that could fairly be described as a fairly whitey area. There are not many Māori living in the farther reaches of the North Shore, Ōrewa, Whangaparāoa, and Kaukapakapa where I live, but this guy managed to be elected as deputy mayor.

Down in Gisborne, where I come from—I sort of know the Māori name for Gisborne, but I cannot remember how to pronounce it properly, and I think one should pronounce it properly—Atareta Poananga is a councillor. She is one of those hangovers from the past who still think that we whiteys should be pushed back into the sea. She says we should go back to where we belong, but she gets elected. There are enough people who think her crazy, mad views hold some credence, and she gets elected. So right there, just off the top of my head, are two examples of Māori being elected to councils.

There is no place for Māori seats on regional councils, on local councils, or in Government. I would like to quote two members of the Labour Party. One is a current member, Trevor Mallard. He was mocked outside this House for saying that because he is from Wainuiōmata, he is tangata whenua. He was mocked for it. I recall a speech made by the late great David Lange at Canterbury University 22 years ago. He said that everyone in New Zealand is an immigrant, whether they arrived last week, last year, 150 years ago, or 500 years ago. He got a bit of stick for it at the time, as well.

I come from a multiracial family. My wife is Tongan. My daughter is both Tongan and a New Zealander. Interestingly she considers herself a New Zealander. My son, although having Tongan heritage, is not a Tongan because Tonga has strict rules on citizenship and he was not born there. I envy the members of this House who can speak in te reo—

MOANA MACKEY (Labour) : I am very happy to follow on from my colleague from Gisborne, David Garrett. I think the most telling thing about that speech on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill was that Mr Garrett really disproved his own point. He could not remember the Māori guy’s last name, so how would he be able to vote for him? He met someone who inspired him so much, but he disproved his point exactly: he came to the ballot paper and could not remember the guy’s last name, because it was Māori. I think that quite aptly shows some of the issues that Māori have in terms of representation. The reality is that no sane person can look at the history of Māori representation on the Auckland councils and say that it has been fair. They cannot, because there have been eight Māori elected to council in nearly 150 years. If Mr Garrett thinks that that shows the system is working A-OK, then I think that says something about the ACT Party.

I also work in the Bay of Plenty. There are Māori seats on the Bay of Plenty Regional Council. You know, the sky did not fall in! Racism has not exploded in the Bay of Plenty. There are no racial divides over there. I want to remind members what the National Party said about that legislation, which was put up by my colleague Mita Ririnui, and about the Local Government Act, which allowed councils to have Māori seats if they decided they wanted them. I have picked two quotes from the Hon Dr Nick Smith. These quotes show that none of us really should be surprised that at the end of the day the National Party went with the ACT Party and decided to say no to the 7,000 people who marched in Auckland saying they wanted representation on the council. The Hon Dr Nick Smith said: “Then we have the separatism provisions: the way in which we are to change a long-term, 160-year tradition in the way we elect local members, by introducing apartheid. I say to the Minister in the chair, the Hon. Chris Carter, who proudly boasts that he protested against apartheid in South Africa—but he is going to introduce it into New Zealand—that he should get on his feet and defend that … What is separate representation, if it is not apartheid?”. That is what the Hon Dr Nick Smith said. He also said: “This damn law we are being required to pass is nothing less than apartheid, and I cannot believe members opposite want to impose this sort of obscene provision. It offends against National’s principle of one standard of citizenship.” When one considers those quotes one sees how little has changed.

Those of us who support Māori seats in Auckland see the value that those seats will bring. We see that in the Bay of Plenty. Another concern the National Party always raises is that it will mean Māori members will only focus on Māori issues. Well, that has not happened in the Bay of Plenty. The Māori members focus on everything. The other members focus on everything as well. It is actually about representation on the ground. We have a number of councillors who probably do not go on to marae a lot. Hui is not their preferred form of contact with their constituents, so they simply would not go there, whereas the iwi representatives on the Bay of Plenty Regional Council do. They go to the hui, they hold the hui, and they consult with their constituents. One would find, if we did not have these seats, that a whole portion of our society would not get the same level of representation. So having these seats is about equality.

Imagine if we were to say to some of our Pākehā constituents that we would not go to their meetings. We would say that we expect them to come to the marae, we expect them to come to the hui, we expect them to speak in Māori, and then they will get representation from their elected representatives. They would say that was not fair, and they would be right. So why is it OK to say to Māori constituents that they will have to come to our meetings, we will not come to the marae, we will not hold the hui, we will not hold the hui in Māori, and they will just have to live with that? Why are two standards OK to the National Party? That is what we are talking about.

We are talking about representation on the ground for the Māori people of Tāmaki-makau-rau. I want the next National speaker to stand up and say what is so offensive about requiring equality of representation. It is still the one person, one vote principle. They do not get to vote twice. They do not get to vote for two people. They still get to vote for one representative. What is so wrong about ensuring that every citizen of Auckland gets equal representation, equal contact with their elected representatives on the city council in the biggest city in New Zealand, our most important city, and the city where it is crucial that we get it right? Why is that so offensive to the National Party? To me it seems to be common sense.

Mr Garrett raised the issue of Gisborne, and said some very unkind things about Atareta Poananga. Two or three councillors out of 12 on the Gisborne District Council are Māori, in a population where 45 percent are Māori.

David Garrett: How did they manage to get on the council?

MOANA MACKEY: How did they manage to get on the council? Oh!

Dr JACKIE BLUE (National) : I think we need to remind ourselves why we are here. How did we come to discuss the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill today? There has been 50 years of concern over Auckland governance, and that is really why we are here today. It was clear that the governance was not working. There was red tape. There was stifling bureaucracy. Transport in Auckland was grinding to a halt. Businesses were suffering. There were turf disputes. There was a lot of duplication. That is really why we are here. The last Government got the royal commission to look at the issue of Auckland governance. The commission consulted widely. It took about 20 months, and it produced a very comprehensive report. That is why we are here. The commission felt there was only very superficial appeal for a referendum, and it felt after its wide consultation that there was consensus for one Auckland Council. It said even more: that it was very urgent, that we had to get on with it, and that we had to get moving. It stressed the high cost of doing nothing. So this Government has acted decisively, and that is why we are here debating the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill today.

Importantly, I think, we have taken on board the local board representation that the Royal Commission on Auckland Governance noted in its report. Indeed, we have strengthened some of those recommendations. The boards are really one of the most critical pieces of this legislation. Certainly, when we were going around Auckland talking to the different communities—we went to the communities; they did not come to us; we made sure that we went to them—their concern was that they would lose their identity, that they would be smothered by the one Auckland Council, that they would not have representation, and that it would all be fairly meaningless. Well, we listened, and there have been significant changes to arrive at the current bill that is before us. It was a democratic process. The process was started by the former Government, and we are completing it. We will have it on track, ready for the local body government elections next year, which will be very critical.

The local boards are quite new; they are not the local community boards we have now, and they are not the city councils we have now. They are new entities with new powers, and with a status all of their own. They are legitimate. The powers they will have will be backed by the legislation we are debating today. They will have dedicated budgets to provide local services and they will have money to plan for their areas. To do that, the Auckland Council will need to devolve a policy of funding so that it can pass on money to the new local boards. We listened and we consulted. The local boards will be empowered to listen to their communities, to consult with their communities, and to write up a plan. Importantly, the one super-council will have to listen to those local boards. It cannot take them simply as lip-service; it has to take note of what the local boards are saying. The boards will have a special status at the council table.

The local boards will need to take a holistic view of their community so that they can promote the social, economic, environmental, and cultural well-being of their communities. I think that that is really quite a nice flavour of what they have to do for their communities. It encompasses what they are charged to do for their communities. Of course, the Local Government Commission will have the final say on the number of local boards, their boundaries, and also the number of members on each of those boards. The number will be somewhere between four and nine people. The local boards will even be able to pass by-laws, which must be adopted if they are truly local and comply with all plans and laws. If appropriate, by-laws can even be enforced by the local boards.

John Carter made a very good point last night that all parties in the Chamber actually agreed with the concept of the new local board. No one dissented. Everyone agreed that we got it right. Everyone supported it. There were no negative comments in any of the minority reports about the local boards.

The Local Government Commission will have to look at the number of local boards as set out in the bill—anywhere between 20 and 30. It is proposed that those local boards should include Rodney, Franklin, Waiheke, and Great Barrier. The Local Government Commission will determine the final boundaries of the local boards. The local boards will not be toothless entities; they will have power, they will have teeth, and they will bring back the “local” into local government. This bill is about empowering local boards so that they can represent Auckland’s diverse communities.

SU’A WILLIAM SIO (Labour—Māngere) : I think Labour has stated clearly that we are not opposed to the reform of the Auckland region. In fact, we have asked for it. But we are saying to the Government that the process is flawed and undemocratic, and I emphasise that it is not visionary enough. There might be a vision in the structure for businesses, but there is no vision for the rest of the population.

I stated in my second reading speech on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill that the Auckland region is home to 1.4 million people and about 180 different ethnic groups, and it has the highest Māori population anywhere in New Zealand. In Māngere alone, 20 percent of the population are of Māori heritage, and about 60 percent of the population are of Pacific heritage. Māori, Pacific, and Asian communities are asking where the vision is. They are asking where they fit into this structure. They are asking where they are being included in the future structure of the Auckland region. Labour believes in having a Māori voice on the Auckland Council. It is about providing a positive vision for the people. It is about taking everyone along. It is about setting good leadership for that region to aspire to.

I ask members opposite whether they are familiar with these names: Ngāpuhi, Waikato, Ngāti Porou, Ngāti Maniapoto, Tūhoe, Te Rarawa, Te Arawa, Ngāti Whātua, Tainui, Ngāti Tūwharetoa, and Ngāti Kahu. Those are the iwi that the people of Māngere are affiliated to. I ask members opposite whether they are familiar with these names: Te Aupōuri, Ngāti Awa, Te Whānau-a-apanui, Ngāti Kurī, Ngāi Tahu, Kai Tahu, Ngāti Te Rangi, Ngāti Paoa, Ngāti Kahungunu ki te Wairoa, Ngāti Wai, Ngāti Raukawa, Whakatōhea, Ngāti Pikiao, Te Ātiawa, Ngāti Ruanui, Te Tai Tokerau, Ngāti Maru, and Ngāti Whakauē. Those are all the hapū that people in Māngere are affiliated to. I ask Government members whether they acknowledge the existence of these people. Do they acknowledge that they have a place in the future of Aotearoa New Zealand? If so, they need to heed the voice that has declared to me and many other MPs in Auckland that Māori want their own voice in the new super-city governance structure.

Although I am proud to represent the 20 percent of Māori who reside in Auckland, I am fully aware that I am not Māori. Māori want their own voice. Members say that Māori issues are hard, but they caved on Mr Hide’s tantrum. It was so easy. He had only to say the word and members caved in to him. Mr Henare has called Mr Hide a buffoon and a jerk-off, but what will he do about it? What will he do about supporting Māori seats? Nothing. I have asked him to cross the floor. Both Mr Henare and Mr Hide ought to be sent to boot camps.

It is true that there have been Māori on the different city councils of our Auckland region, but they are elected from small wards. I will give members an example. Ōtara, with a population of about 35,000, has had Māori councillors. Councillor Kūkū Wawatai was for many years the deputy mayor of Manukau City. Councillor Reuben Wiki represented the Ōtara ward in Manukau City for many, many years. But those Māori councillors came from small wards where there was a large Māori population that recognised that those people provided good leadership in those small communities.

SUE KEDGLEY (Green) : First of all, I would like to correct some misleading comments that National members John Carter and Jackie Blue made when they said the report of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill was unanimous and no one had voted against sections of it. They know that is completely untrue, and I clarified that with John Carter yesterday. I reminded him that the Green Party had voted against every part of the bill. I know that because I was there doing the voting, so I would like to correct that.

The second thing is that I pointed out yesterday that the local boards would have no right to hire staff, no independent source of revenue, and no clearly defined powers, and that they would be completely subservient to the Auckland Council. John Carter said no, that was not true, so I asked him to point out to me which provision in the bill set out the autonomous powers of the local boards. Let us remember that is what we are replacing here. We have had six well-functioning, autonomous city councils, and they will be replaced by these four to nine - member boards, which have no autonomy. I asked John Carter to point out to me where autonomy is provided for in the bill. He could not point out to me the relevant clause. He suggested that I go and talk to the officials, instead. So off I went to the officials and asked them to point out to me the provision in the bill that states unequivocally the powers of the local boards. They pointed me back to clause 13D.

I would highly recommend that Aucklanders have a good look at clause 13D. It says the council can delegate to the local boards, but the council can also override or veto a local board, and it spells out four ways in which the council can do that. The council may do so if it thinks the effects of an activity could be felt beyond a board’s area. Well, almost anything would be. The council may do so if the activity needs to be aligned with other council decisions. Well, surely everything would have to be aligned with other council decisions. The council may also do so if the benefits of taking a consistent or coordinated approach outweigh the benefits to, and the needs and preferences of, a local area, or if the activity is one where decision making on an Auckland-wide basis would better promote the well-being of the communities. In that clause, which John Carter reckoned spelt out the powers of the local boards, and which officials pointed to me as being the relevant clause, four huge reasons are given for the council to override every decision of any local board. So I think we can put that claim by John Carter to rest, as that clause makes it clear that the local boards are completely subservient to the Auckland Council, which is called the governing body. They have no autonomy and no powers of their own.

The second thing I want to do is to introduce the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 55 in my name to the powers of the mayor. We are basically seeking to amend clause 9 so that the powers of the Mayor of Auckland are the same as the powers of the mayor of every other council. We cannot understand why the Mayor of Auckland should have excessive powers that are given to no other mayor in New Zealand. No justification has ever been given for this. Interestingly, just before I introduced this amendment, I happened to hear on the radio this morning—it was very interesting; I think it was Radio Live—John Banks, doing an interview. This was very, very interesting. He was talking about the super-city. He said he had a campaign staff of 600 people. I think everyone needs to know this. He said on the radio he had a campaign staff of 600 people and he would need a huge budget, because he pointed out that it would cost $130,000 just to send a letter to the 800,000 voters of Auckland. This will be one of the largest local bodies in the world, representing 800,000 people. Is that local government? I do not think so—that is State government. Anyway, why would John Banks have a campaign staff of 600 people and vast amounts of money? Why is he so excited about this super-city? He knows that if he makes it into the mayoralty, he will have huge and excessive powers under this bill, unless my amendment goes through.

Hon MITA RIRINUI (Labour) : I start by formally apologising to the member for Waiariki, Te Ururoa Flavell. The reason I am doing so is when I took an earlier call on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill I made a very strong statement, which I stand by: that the Māori Party members have been, by and large, quite invisible throughout this whole debate. They have made public statements and they have certainly taken a few calls in the Chamber, but I was not convinced that they were totally committed to the kaupapa of Māori representation. However, I held that view right up until the moment that the member for Waiariki stood to take a call. He made his position very clear in terms of his support and the support of his party. Now I am convinced that he is not dilly-dallying around, he is not playing politics with this issue, and he is very committed to the issues at hand. So I say to the member for Waiariki that that was a very important call, and he raised some very relevant points.

One particular point he raised was fear. It seems that he is of the same view as I am: for some reason, the National-led Government has a fear of Māori. In the past, particularly going back to 2001 when I introduced the Bay of Plenty Regional Council legislation, I had the same impression: a number of National and ACT members in this Chamber—particularly the Minister now in the chair, Rodney Hide—were fearful of Māori and fearful of the Māori voice. They were fearful that Māori might have a level of control over the issues that affect them. They had a fear that this Trojan Horse—“stalking horse”, as it was described at the time—may eventually grow to a size and be accepted, by and large, by New Zealand society such that it could no longer be controlled. Scare tactics! I say to the member for Waiariki that the points he raised were very important because there seems to be a level of fear. Every time the name “Rodney” comes up, whether it be Rodney Hide in the chair, or the Rodney District Council, there is fear. The Government seems to go into fear mode. It starts to amend things to suit “Rodney”, be it the Minister in the chair or the Rodney District Council. As the member for Waiariki said, there is no need to fear Māori. We have a vested interest in the well-being of our communities and we insist—not want, but insist—that we make a valid contribution to the development of those communities.

I also acknowledge the contribution of my colleague Su’a William Sio. He did a very, very important thing. He focused his contribution to the debate on people—the voices of the people. He highlighted the communities of his area of Māngere. He highlighted the hapū and the iwi, and where they were from. He went through a list of iwi who occupy that particular area. It is very important that we do that. He was saying that these indigenous people, tangata whenua of certain tribal affiliations, have been speaking to the Government, but the Government has not been listening. When we put it in that context it becomes very, very important that people start to listen.

When we heard the submissions on the Bay of Plenty legislation we followed the same process. The voices of the hapū—the kārangarangatanga hapū of Te Arawa—had the opportunity to speak, and they were heard. The voices of all the hapū of Mātaatua, mai i Ngā Kurī a Whārei ki Tihirau, had the opportunity to speak, and they were heard. The hapū of the tribes of Tainui who occupied the north-western part of the Bay of Plenty also had the opportunity to express a view, and were heard. The tribes of Horotiu, which cover the top end of Ngāti Porou in the Bay of Plenty also made submissions and insisted that their concerns be raised, and their voices were heard. That is exactly the point: to acknowledge—putting aside the argument around the Treaty of Waitangi—that there is a tangata whenua voice. I listened to the Minister earlier on. I wonder whether he was being politically mischievous, because he kept raising the issue about the tangata whenua voice and the Māori voice in general, although I do not know why that is an issue for the Minister.

Dr RAJEN PRASAD (Labour) : It was a privilege to sit for part of the hearings in Auckland and to hear, time and time again, Aucklanders present thoughtful pieces and isolate a whole range of concerns they had about the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. I was impressed with the Hon John Carter in the way he handled the discussion, the way he handled the submissions people were making, and the way he used good humour to engage us all in the process. It began to give a sense of assurance to Aucklanders that their voices will be listened to, but they were not. The promise was certainly given.

This is one of the most important constitutional moments for Auckland and, indeed, for local government in New Zealand. However, what has happened since then does not give credit to the fact that we are addressing important constitutional matters. So much that has happened since then belies the promises that were given and it does not deliver them. I think the Hon John Carter is now at the forefront of trying to say that they have listened and all of the promises that were made are in this legislation, but they are not. Speaker after speaker from this side has got up and shown example after example of how the people have not been listened to. Apart from the agreement on a unitary authority, there is no agreement on much else.

Throughout the day in this debate we will identify many of those kinds of things. Yes, we on this side agree that a unitary authority is what we want, but not at any cost. That is why we are arguing against much of what is here.

The process certainly has been flawed in more ways than one. I guess this comes through most in the Māori seats. What is so difficult that Mr Rodney Hide cannot understand, appreciate, or internalise that one of the defining characteristics of New Zealand society is that we have a Treaty and we have an indigenous culture? They have certain rights, and promises have been made, and in post-renaissance New Zealand that has to be respected. Much of the rhetoric about one person, one vote, etc., does not cut the mustard. Indeed, this Parliament has to take responsibility to address what Treaty relationships are all about. In the most classic sense, this is the bicultural relationship between the Crown and iwi Māori. The Minister may shake his head and use some other principle about “one person, one vote; let them go and compete on the open market and it will be fine”. That is what we have been doing since 1960 when Māori began to say that assimilation was not the answer. Then there was the Māori renaissance, and we are now post-renaissance. It means that in terms of what Māori want, and what submitter after submitter presented to the select committee in Auckland—and Mr Carter was listening to them day in and day out—there had to be Māori seats, and Māori had to be at the table, for all kinds of reasons.

Fundamentally, it was because they are the tangata whenua, there is a Treaty relationship, and we are in a post-renaissance New Zealand society. To put that to one side, I am really surprised that the National Party—a party that prides itself in saying that it will address the needs of Māori, and that is surviving with Māori at its side—here, on one of the most fundamental things for Māori, is putting that aside and is saying that this is not important. I am not impressed with any of the arguments that Mr Hide made about letting the councils decide. This is a constitutional issue, it arises from Treaty relationships, it is what Māori want, and all of the other language around fairness, and one person, one vote, is flimflam.

The same issues arise in other areas. Here we have a city with a huge Māori population. There are two iwi authorities being immersed and involved in contributing to what Auckland is. It is a great environment for tangata whenua in the sense that they represent their people and New Zealand. They showcase much of that. Why would we not want them to participate at the table where decisions are made? Most of those decisions are about their own people. Is it that Rodney Hide has been successful in driving his ideology? Essentially, his ideology is to reduce local authorities to concern with water, sewage, and things like that. But I say to Mr Hide that this is a community that is vibrant. This is a series of communities that live every day, and it is not just about roading, sewerage, or what have you. It is about the people who live there, and it is the participation of those people in their own governance that really is the hallmark of 21st century governance.

Why is this Government, with the ACT Party, so dismissive of that? My plea is a sincere one. I ask the Government to listen to what Aucklanders want, and listen to the demands of the 21st century. People will participate in their own lives in a meaningful way, so I ask Mr Hide why he will not give them the ability to do that. He may say that there is one person, one vote, and everything will be fine, but up until now it has not worked. It took Māori a long time before they entered into local authorities. The tangata whenua are asking for what is important to them. This is a Treaty-based relationship. This is everything that is good about our society, yet the Minister dismisses it and drives his own particular ideology about the role of local government. The expectations that people have is that this is what they want. Thank you.

Hon GEORGE HAWKINS (Labour—Manurewa) : I will talk about the participation in the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill by the member for Maungakiekie.

Dr Ashraf Choudhary: Who is he?

Hon GEORGE HAWKINS: He is Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga, and he is one of the strong, silent types. He is very silent, but he is also on the Auckland City Council. I thought he would have had a big part to play in this debate. He would have seen it from both sides. But, no, we have not heard from that strong, silent type. Some of his colleagues tell me that he has not been in Panmure in months. Carol Beaumont has that all sewn up.

What we really want to know is what is going on in Maungakiekie. We have someone who is an Auckland City councillor who could contribute so much to this legislation, but he has been absolutely silent not only in this Chamber but also in the electorate. It is not surprising. I look around and I see two—no, it has gone up by 50 percent—three National MPs in the debating chamber. They are really concerned! This is the sort of contempt that the National Government has for this legislation. When we have a look, we see that people made submissions, and I think it is very important that when people make submissions their member comes to the Chamber and talks about them. I think that the people are being poorly served. Those people want their local boards to have more power, and the select committee has gone some way towards that. We are not sure exactly what those extra powers will be, but they will be a wee bit more than getting rid of the local rats and things like that.

Chris Tremain: Which particular rats are you talking about?

Hon GEORGE HAWKINS: Well, when I talk about rats, I mean the National Party. I am sorry; I must apologise. National members should be here if they care. Why do those members not come into the Chamber and take a call? Of course they will not. They will not get up and say what will happen with wards or with community committees. I bet that the member for Maungakiekie will not say a thing. I would yield now if he came and asked for a call.

But of course he will not.

Hon Steve Chadwick: Are they listening?

Hon GEORGE HAWKINS: He is not listening. In the end, the people of Maungakiekie who voted for him have learnt their lesson. They will not vote for him next time. Carol Beaumont will be the MP for Maungakiekie because she has listened to people. She has found out what her community thinks. The member for Maungakiekie at the moment does not say a thing. He says very little at the Auckland City Council meetings when he bothers to attend them. He has worked out how many meetings he has to go to in order to collect his payment from Auckland City. He does barely the minimum. He comes down to the Chamber, hides in the National caucus, does nothing and says nothing, but collects the money. Some people say he is a double-dipper.

Here is a very important bill in which most Aucklanders are interested. How many Auckland National MPs are here in the Chamber? I must say that Dr Jackie Blue is here, and I think it is really good that she has turned up. I look around for others, but I would need binoculars to find them. I cannot see any Auckland National MPs ready to jump up and take a call. They are so arrogant that they are not listening. I ask them what we are going to have for wards.

PHIL TWYFORD (Labour) : Like many Aucklanders of my generation, I first became aware of the tangata whenua of Auckland in 1978, when Ngāti Whātua o Ōrākei occupied Bastion Point in protest at the plans of the then National Government, under Robert Muldoon, to turn Bastion Point into a bastion of high-income housing. I felt shock and horror as an Aucklander of the tender age of 15 or 16 at seeing the National Government of the day bring in the troops to evict protesters from Bastion Point.

During this speech I will draw on some comments made by Mērata Kāwharu of Auckland and of Ngāti Whātua, who wrote a very good op-ed piece in the New Zealand Herald a little while ago. She made the comment that the challenges facing Ngāti Whātua in 1840 were very similar to the challenges they face now, which are about recognition of their place in the community and acknowledgment of their roles and responsibilities. It is the mana whenua concept—the idea of authority over the traditional lands of the tribe and the exercising of rights and responsibilities. It is that recognition that looms very large for Ngāti Whātua in the debate over the super-city.

It is worth remembering that in 1840 Ngāti Whātua sent a delegation to Waitangi. Apihai Te Kawau sent a delegation to Waitangi because Ngāti Whātua were very concerned about the impact of the changing political and population situation at the time. Their response was to donate 3,500 acres of the best land—land that is now home to the people of Mount Eden, the central business district, Ponsonby, Herne Bay, and Newmarket. In 1841 a further 8,000 acres of land were transferred. Ngāti Whatua’s history since that founding act, which provided the land for the city of Auckland to be established, has really been one of a struggle to be recognised. In 1907 the Provincial Council made the decision to discharge raw sewage directly into the sea at Ōkahu Bay. In the early 1950s the papakāinga at Ōkahu Bay was forcibly removed and demolished, and the families who lived there—the community who lived at Ōkahu Bay—were resettled against their will up on the hill. The turning point was the decision made by Joe Hawke and his family to occupy Bastion Point in protest at this history. From then on we have seen some happier days. I urge members who have not read the Waitangi Tribunal report on Ngāti Whātua o Ōrākei to do so. In the wake of the Waitangi Tribunal report, we saw Ngāti Whātua generously allowing publicly accessible land at Bastion Point to be jointly managed by them and the Auckland City Council. Some years later they gave a 50 percent discount on ground rent to allow the building of the Vector Arena.

I make these comments simply to make the point that Māori have made Tāmaki-makau-rau home since before the city was even thought of. They generously provided the land for the establishment of the city, but until the 1990s they were excluded from the governance of the city. New Zealand in the 21st century is a very different place. We know that our city needs to be inclusive and that, within a generation, 40 to 50 percent of the people of Auckland will be of Māori or Pacific descent. We know that if Ngāti Whātua, Tainui, and all the hapū and iwi who live in Tāmaki-makau-rau are not included fully in the civic life of our city, then Auckland will be a poorer place. The history is very clear: very few Māori have been elected to general seats in local government. We know that over 138 years in Auckland only eight councillors have ever been elected to general seats. The reality is that voters tend to vote for people like themselves. We need Māori at the top table. We know that, as a minority group, it is extraordinarily difficult for them to be elected. We know that Māori seats elected from the Māori roll have been an effective mechanism in this House.

SUE KEDGLEY (Green) : I would like to talk to my amendments to clause 9 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 55 in my name, which are to amend the powers of the mayor. Before I introduce them, I will outline the additional powers of the mayor under the model proposed in the bill and why we should care about these additional powers.

First of all, the mayor gets to choose his own deputy and all the chairs of committees, and indeed can appoint himself to be chair of any committee—and I use the words “his” and “himself” advisedly. In every other council that is not the case; the council votes on chairs and deputy mayors, which means that more consultation is required. The committee chairs and the deputy mayor have to work with the whole council in order to get support, which builds in a more consultative approach, whereas under the model proposed in the bill the committee chairs and the deputy mayor will be completely beholden to the mayor, who will choose them. Secondly, once the mayor has appointed all of the chairs and the deputy mayor, he will control the votes in the council. Once the mayor controls the votes in the council, he will then be able to whip through any agenda that he wishes. Then, on top of that, the mayor has the extraordinary powers in the bill to decide whether and how the council will consult with Aucklanders. The bill states that the mayor will “establish processes and mechanisms for the Auckland Council to engage with the people of Auckland, whether generally or particularly”, and later states that the mayor “must not delegate any of his or her powers”. So the mayor alone will decide on the consultation process.

If John Banks were to become mayor—and we learnt this morning on the radio that he has a campaign team of 600 people and huge amounts of funding; it will be interesting to find out how much funding—he will choose all of the key appointments, all the committee chairs, and they will all be beholden to him. He will control the whole inner cabal, the votes, and the agenda. He will be able to drive through his own agenda. If he decides, for example, that he wants to sell off a few assets—and we know that that is the underlying agenda of Rodney Hide and ACT; it is quite explicit in their local government policy—according to the principle in clause 9(3) of the bill he could choose not to bother to consult with Aucklanders.

I do not think that people have quite understood the implications of the powers of the mayor, and that is why I am so concerned about this issue. I have been a city councillor for 8 years, and for some of those I had the pleasure of having Mark Blumsky as mayor. He managed to get a majority on the council, and he rammed things through. Councillors who were outside the inner cabal were really impotent; there was nothing they could do. The executive had the power; it could drive through anything. Other councillors could jump up and down and protest, but the votes would be rammed through. So I think Aucklanders need to be aware of the implications of this bill, and particularly of the idea that the mayor is to decide on every mechanism for consultation with the people of Auckland.

I ask—and maybe the Minister could reply to this question—whether this clause overrides the provisions of the Local Government Act that set out very clearly the consultation mechanisms local councils must follow when they do anything significant, such as selling off an asset. Very clear powers are spelt out in the Local Government Act, and they apply to every council in New Zealand. But I ask the Minister of Local Government, Mr Hide, whether or not they apply here. Could the Minister answer this question? Do they not apply to the Auckland Council? Does the provision in clause 9(3) override the provisions of the Local Government Act? It certainly appears to do that. It seems that absolutely unilateral powers are given to the mayor to decide on the processes and mechanisms that the council will use to engage with the people of Auckland. Obviously, if the mayor decides that he does not want to consult with Aucklanders because he wants to sell off some assets or do something that he thinks might be unpopular, he has unilateral powers under this bill. That is why I have moved these amendments.

Hon MITA RIRINUI (Labour) : I took an earlier call and made a pretty accurate statement that perhaps, from time to time, the Minister of Local Government was involved in political mischief. I say that because I listened to an earlier call that he took, and he raised the issue—it was an issue for him, but not necessarily for the people of Auckland, particularly Māori—that when it comes to determining tangata whenua seats and determining Māori seats in terms of representation, there is a problem. Which way does one go? I find that to be nothing more than mischief. If we had used the same argument in the Bay of Plenty in 2001, we may never have resolved the issue. It was simply not an issue for us at that time in the Bay of Plenty. It was a matter Māori would resolve, as usual, by way of a number of hui around the rohe, in this case, Waiariki. To use what I call a wedge to separate Māori from Māori is nothing more than political mischief.

My colleague Phil Twyford raised some interesting points about the history of Auckland, particularly in relation to Ngāti Whātua and the trials and tribulations they have had to endure since colonisation. In particular, during the 1970s, and particularly in 1978 when Ngāti Whātua were forcibly removed from their ancestral lands at Ōrākei, or Bastion Point, as it is more commonly known. The very point that Ngāti Whātua have been trying to stress throughout this whole debate is that they do not want a repeat of Bastion Point when it comes to the very small assets they have remaining in their possession. Su’a William Sio raised the point about who the people of Auckland are, and he highlighted who they were. He made the point that their voice must be heard on the Auckland super-city council. There is no guarantee—regardless of the attempts by the Minister of Local Government to convince the House that there will be one—that at any time, once this bill is enacted, Māori will have a voice at the top table and not the bottom tables that have been referred to by the Minister and National members. That becomes a very, very important issue.

I go back again to the experiences of the Bay of Plenty during the discussions in 2000 and 2001 around the Environment Bay of Plenty legislation to ensure Māori representation. It was important to take time. Environment Bay of Plenty did take time; it took 9 years before the legislation came to this House, as I said earlier on. It was important to ensure that all groups were contacted, and they were given the opportunity to air their views. Earlier on, I highlighted the tribal confederations of Mātaatua, mai i Ngā Kurī a Whārei ki Tihirau, Te Arawa, mai i Maketū ki Tongariro. I also made mention of the interests of Tainui, Horouta, and Tākitimu on the peripherals of that area. We see, as I mentioned earlier on, that when we look at Māori through the eyes of who they are ancestrally, we get a completely different picture in terms of the value they bring to the top table. We get a different picture about the passion they have for the assets, the natural resources, and the environment of their areas. I do not think that, at any time in the past, any council have been able to say that Māori were at the top table making their concerns clear in terms of the matters I have raised today.

The chair of Environment Bay of Plenty, John Cronin, said it is working very well. He has at no time said the Māori members of Environment Bay of Plenty deal only with Māori issues specifically. They do not. In fact, if one goes to the Environment Bay of Plenty website, one will find that those Māori members head a number of subcommittees for Environment Bay of Plenty, such as the environment committee, the finance committee, and are involved in a whole lot of other committees. That is at the council level, but they also play a very important role on the ground in communities, making contact with the people who put them there to represent their views. That is what should happen in respect of Auckland City.

KELVIN DAVIS (Labour) : Tēnā nō koe, Mr Chair. It was great to hear the history lesson from my colleague Phil Twyford. I will extend that history lesson and put in a plug for my iwi of Ngāpuhi when it comes to mana whenua. Those of us who know our history will know that years and years ago our tupuna Kupe stopped off at Pōkeno and left a kōhatu, a rock, there. He claimed all the land from Pōkeno right up to Te Rerenga Wairua. Based on that, Ngāpuhi could claim all of Tāmaki and all of that area in between. It is really important that people know history, and that people know what went on back in those days. I do not want to throw a spanner in the works. I will not stand here and claim that—

Hon Mita Ririnui: Fooled me!

KELVIN DAVIS: I will stand up for Ngāpuhi, anyway. It is really important that people know our history.

I feel sorry for the Hon Tau Henare and the Hon Georgina te Heuheu. We know that they went out and batted for Māori seats on the council of the Auckland super-city. We know that they would have argued with their caucus members, and we know that in the end they were basically sidelined. It is really hard to be a brown peg in a square hole. I take my hat off to the Hon Georgina te Heuheu and the Hon Tau Henare, who went out and batted for the Māori people of Auckland, be they Ngāpuhi, Tainui, Ngāti Whātua, or wherever they come from. They went out and batted for them.

It was unfortunate we did not see those members on the hikoi. There were 7,000 people—7,000 Māori, Pākeha, Pacific Islanders. They all went out and marched, saying they wanted Māori seats. As I said earlier this morning, it is sad that although the Government says: “We listened. We listened. We listened.”, the evidence is there that it has not listened, because Māori do not have their seats.

I bring up the point that people of all ethnicities marched that day. That is really important, because if Māori have no voice on the Auckland super-city, then what hope do our brothers and sisters from the Pacific Islands, from India, from Asia, or wherever, have? If Māori, as tangata whenua, do not have a voice on the Auckland super-city council, what hope do other ethnicities have of having their points of view represented at a governance level in Auckland?

The whole issue of Māori being denied representation—Māori seats—on the council of the super-city also brings into question the integrity of the relationship between the National Government and our whanaunga in the Māori Party. While others are going out to bat for, and talking up, Māori seats on the council, the Māori Party members are distracted. They are sent off on a wild goose chase, they are sent down the garden path, to deal with issues such as a Māori flag. They are told to take four options for a Māori flag to 21 meetings over 3 months at marae across the country, and come back and tell the Government what the answer is. Would New Zealanders in general put up with that sort of process? Would New Zealanders say it is fine for somebody to take four versions of the New Zealand flag to community meetings in rugby clubs and community halls in places such as Hūkerenui and Broadwood, then come back and say: “Here, New Zealand; here’s a flag.”? The flag issue is a diversion and it also shows contempt. It is quite condescending and patronising. The Government told the Māori Party to go down the garden path while the Government deals with the real issue of Māori not having a voice in governance, a voice that would allow Māori to have a say in how their city is governed. It is patronising and it is condescending.

In 2002 my colleague Mita Ririnui was instrumental in introducing the Bay of Plenty Regional Council bill that allowed two Māori members—

Hon Mita Ririnui: Three.

KELVIN DAVIS: —three Māori members, excuse me—on the Bay of Plenty Regional Council. As our colleague Moana Mackey pointed out, the world did not end.

TE URUROA FLAVELL (Māori Party—Waiariki) : Kia ora anō tātou katoa. We know, obviously, that the Māori seats—or, at least, mana whenua seats—are an issue for this Parliament, and I want to continue around that theme and perhaps put some questions to the Minister in the chair, Rodney Hide, as I thought that his kōrero earlier this morning at least gave an overview as to where he is at.

In terms of the discussion of the Māori seats in Auckland governance, there was overwhelming support from the Royal Commission on Auckland Governance. All the mana whenua groups in Auckland, the two major iwi groups in Auckland, 100 percent of the Māori submitters to the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill, 80 percent of the non-Māori submitters to that select committee, the majority of the Auckland councils, most of the Auckland mayors, and three of the five major parties in Parliament were in support of mana whenua seats. Hone Harawira told us last night that every intelligent political commentator in the country says it is OK to have mana whenua seats. In response, the Minister of Local Government has said that if the people of Auckland choose to have reserve seats—Māori seats, that is—they can do so under the Local Electoral Act. Indeed, the council itself can choose this if it wants to. Those are big ifs. The Minister suggested that if Māori really want separate seats, they should vote for mayoral candidate Len Brown as the first mayor of the united Auckland City.

If we get organised as a people we might be able to put up candidates and vote accordingly, but the track record suggests that it does not all happen like that. Despite all the support, the select committee elected not to recommend that the bill provide for Māori seats on the proposed Auckland Council. I suppose that the good thing about all those entities I mentioned earlier is that they accepted the notion that it is OK to have mana whenua seats—Māori seats. The royal commission accepted the principle, for goodness’ sake! That is what I was asking the Minister earlier this morning. I asked him to explain that he accepts the principle under the auspices of Te Tiriti o Waitangi that having mana whenua seats—not necessarily Māori seats—is appropriate in today’s world.

We in the Māori Party are obviously pretty disappointed that we have not been able to get our way, but we will continue to fight it through. But it calls into serious question the fundamental basis of the parliamentary democratic process, which should reflect decision making of the people and for the people. The Minister Mr Hide talked this morning about the complications of providing a mechanism that would best reflect his principles of, I suppose, one law for all. It seems to me that we have paid officials in and around Parliament whose job it is to come up with an idea and a system that best reflects that in practice. But we have to accept the principle first, and that is what I am asking the Minister to consider. I am asking him to accept the principle that it is OK according to Te Tiriti o Waitangi for Māori to have seats set aside as of right.

The Māori Party is not sitting back. To support our cause we are putting forward five Supplementary Order Papers to move forward the Auckland kaupapa in an inclusive way. The amendments start with what is the preferred position of mana whenua—that is, two mana whenua seats, with candidates selected by mana whenua and voted on by Māori—and go right across the forum, if you like, to the most limited option, which is that of one Māori seat. In the end, we are still looking for the opening that allows the Government to accept that principle. The five options that we will be presenting to the Committee are in the name of my colleague Hone Harawira, and they demonstrate that a number of options were presented to Cabinet, but that ultimately none was acceptable.

I will quickly go through some of the Supplementary Order Papers. The first would insert a requirement to provide for mana whenua representation on Auckland Council as required under Te Tiriti o Waitangi.

CARMEL SEPULONI (Labour) : Before I get into what I want to discuss, I point out that the Government decided that this matter was so urgent that we needed to deal with it under urgency, so I find it rather shocking that none of the Government members are standing to take calls. This is the second time the Government has put the House into urgency to deal with this particular issue. I find it rather concerning that none of the Government members finds it urgent enough for them to stand up and debate it robustly in the Chamber. I think the New Zealand public would be interested to know that those members do not find this issue is as urgent as they would like the public to think it is.

With that in mind, I would like to refer back to what the previous speaker, Te Ururoa Flavell, was talking about—Māori representation. I was part of the group that marched in support of Māori seats on the Auckland Council, and one thing struck me. I was left wondering why we continually have to have protests over things like that, when we would think that they would be automatically granted under the Treaty of Waitangi. The constant battle by Māori and others who support this request for Māori representation is completely unnecessary. What we will find is that, 1 year, 2 years, or 3 years down the track, Māori seats will be granted, and we will look back at this time and wonder why the Minister of Local Government, Rodney Hide, made it so difficult. Why did he have to incite protests from the New Zealand public, when it was something that should have been granted in the first place? I look forward to that time. It may not be now; it may be 2 or 3 years down the track, it may be when the Labour Government is back in power, it may be 4 or 5 years down the track, but I look forward to the time when I can turn to Mr Rodney Hide and say: “Now the right thing has been done. Why didn’t you do it in the first place?’.

I want to touch on the voting system in respect of what is being pushed through in the bill. The bill proposes that first-past-the-post voting system be used to elect the mayor, councillors, and local board members, in spite of many submissions to the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee saying that preferential voting would deliver fairer, more representative results. The concern that some people have expressed to me is that some of our people who are less politically savvy might struggle with a preferential voting system, but I think it is important that whatever voting system we implement, it is one that ensures that people’s votes actually count—that people place their votes and that they count. The last thing we want is a mayor who is elected by only 20 percent of the Auckland region. That would hardly be representative of what the Auckland region wants. We need a voting system that ensures that the votes of all Aucklanders count in some way.

Some people have talked to me about their concern that some people may find it difficult to understand what is required of them in respect of a preferential voting system. But there is nothing to stop Auckland from putting some sort of education system in place so that we can ensure that in the lead-up to the local elections Aucklanders are aware of how the particular voting system works. I cannot understand why, therefore, we are left with a voting system that could potentially give us a mayor who is elected by only 20 percent—perhaps even less—of the Auckland voting public. We on this side of the Chamber believe that ensuring that candidates win by majorities and that fewer votes are wasted will deliver more legitimacy and is likely to lead to increased voter participation.

Preferential voting—for instance, the single transferable vote system—also delivers more diverse representation. If the Government decides not to include Māori seats on the council, that issue becomes even more urgent, but it is also important to encourage candidates from other ethnic minorities, including Pasifika and Asian people, as well as from other important interest groups, like youth and the disabled.

SUE KEDGLEY (Green) : It is customary for the Minister in the chair to answer questions at the Committee stage when serious questions are raised of that Minister and requests are made to clarify genuinely significant issues. I have asked a genuine question of the Minister in the chair, Rodney Hide. I have asked him to explain whether the provision in the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill to give the mayor powers to establish processes and mechanisms for the council to engage with the people of Auckland—in other words, to decide on all consultation that the Auckland Council has with Aucklanders—overrides all of the other consultation provisions in the Local Government Act. I really would appreciate the Minister’s answering this question. If he will not do so, I would appreciate Mr Carter, the Associate Minister of Local Government, answering it.

It was interesting that when I asked Associate Minister John Carter whether he could point out what provisions of the bill he said gave local boards autonomy and power, he was not able to, even though he has chaired the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee for weeks and months. He was not able to point to any such provision; he recommended that I go to the officials instead, which I did. Of course, the officials gave me exactly the information that I already knew, which is that the local boards will not have any local autonomy and powers.

I thought it might be worth raising a couple of further issues. First, what do the mayors of Auckland think of the amendments that have come through as a result of the select committee hearings? I also want to talk about the costs and benefits of this organisation. Well, Bob Harvey said, despite all of the spin, that unless the boards were given additional powers, the local boards would be little more than sewing circle meetings. In the meantime, the North Shore Mayor, Andrew Williams, says that the upshot, after all the consultation, “is an all powerful super Auckland Council, a super Mayor with even more power than before, 20 to 30 completely powerless local boards with no statutory powers or resources in their own right,”. He predicted: “It will only be a matter of time before communities realise that despite Rodney Hide’s lofty promises, their democratic right to decide local issues for their own local area now has passed to 20 Councillors in Queen Street who call all the shots.” He said: “There will certainly be a community backlash once local communities start approaching their new local boards for better services, only to be told that the best they can do is ‘advocate’ their case to the Auckland Council or to try to ‘plead’ their case for inclusion in the next Auckland Council LTCCP or annual plan,”. In other words, he predicts that once they work out that the local boards really have no powers, despite “all the government spin and double-speak,” there will be a backlash in the community. I am sure that that is the case.

The other issue I would like to raise concerns the benefits and costs of this huge restructuring. There has not been a regulatory impact statement of what the costs and benefits are to Aucklanders. That is odd, because the Minister of Local Government, Rodney Hide, is also the Minister for Regulatory Reform. One of the things he goes on and on about is the need to be absolutely aware of the costs and benefits of proposed legislation. So what are the costs and what are the benefits? I notice that nobody is suggesting that one of the benefits will be lower rates, because we know that there will be increased rates. We also know that all of the costs of restructuring will be borne by the Auckland ratepayers. They will be whacked with this huge bill, once the Auckland Council is set up, for a new council that most Aucklanders oppose.

We need to understand the magnitude of what has happened. We had seven well-functioning, autonomous, democratically elected councils. They have been wiped out and replaced with this super-council, which will represent 1.4 million people—I think about 800,000 voters. It will probably be the largest council in the world. Then we have 20 to 30 rather tiny, fragmented local boards, which will be completely subservient to the council. What is the benefit of this huge restructuring?

Hon RODNEY HIDE (Minister of Local Government) : I am pleased to see that at least the Green Party raises serious issues; I will answer them. Sue Kedgley said that the local boards will not have autonomous decision-making powers, and she cited clause 13D and the exceptions to this. Clause 13D states that decisions on non-regulatory activities should be exercised by local boards, unless Auckland-wide decisions will better promote the well-being of Auckland communities. The key thing here is that the default is that local boards will make such decisions. This too should also be read in the context of the rest of the bill’s provisions, which include clause 13C, which provides that local boards are responsible and democratically accountable for non-regulatory decision-making; that they have the ability to propose by-laws—that provision is from clause 13K—and that they have the funding that provides for equitable capacity for local boards to enhance the well-being of their communities. In fact, it is those provisions that saw the President of New Zealand Community Boards, Mr Mike Cohen, come out in such good support for the work that the Government has done—first, in providing for the second tier of local boards, and, indeed, in powering them up.

Hon MARYAN STREET (Labour) : I rise to speak particularly to the amendments to the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill relating to Māori representation on the Auckland super-city. I have grave concerns about the failure of the bill to address that issue. My concerns stem not simply from the rejection of Māori representation as a fitting issue in the consideration of a new super-city; my primary concern is about the poverty-stricken vision that it represents from this Government for the largest city in New Zealand and its future. This is not a vision going forward for New Zealand; this is a poverty-stricken “back to the past” vision for Auckland City and its place in Aotearoa.

We have come a long way from the days of Bastion Point that my colleague Phil Twyford traversed so eloquently earlier. I remember those days well myself, albeit I was a bit older than him at the time. However, the exclusion of Māori representation on the body that is to run the biggest and most dynamic city in this country, which was my home for 27 years, is a narrow, introspective, and regressive action. We need to present to the world a different kind of super-city. We need to present to the world something unique that is Aotearoa New Zealand, and excluding Māori representation does not take us there. It is a poverty-stricken vision, it does not recognise the legitimacy of the claims of Māori to be represented at the top table, and it does not model alternative governance structures for the future of our country.

I would like to refer to Alasdair Thompson’s article. Alasdair Thompson, from the Employers and Manufacturers Association (Northern), said the Auckland super-city was on track bar two recommendations. He said: “They are the absence of seats reserved for elected Maori representatives on the Council, and the shifting of the northern boundary of the city’s region.” The shifting of the northern boundary has been remedied by this Government, after pressure from the public. But he says about the absence of seats reserved for elected Māori representatives: “We cannot understand that. There’s no sense in it.” He went further in the New Zealand Herald to do an entire article, an opinion piece, about why Māori representation needed to be at the governance table, and it was about exercising authority.

If Alasdair Thompson from the Employers and Manufacturers Association (Northern) gets it, why does this Minister not get it? Alasdair Thompson has the courage to plot forward a way for a dynamic future for New Zealand and for the Auckland super-city, by representing the view that joint representation at the governance table is essential. Not only is it essential to the progress, life, and development of the Auckland super-city but it is essential as a point of difference, as a mark that says to the rest of the world there is a unique city here that is not replicated anywhere else in the world, and it is represented in this way by its governance structure. That is not a hard ask. Even on purely pragmatic grounds about the economic point of difference for tourism, the attractiveness of the city, and the attractiveness of New Zealand, it is not a hard ask. But when we layer on to that lack of representation of Māori at the governance level the very profound grievance that it will create, we have a recipe for disaster. We have a recipe for ongoing aggravation in a city that ought to be stepping up and proving itself to be a city of the future. However, we do not have a Minister who is prepared to wear that.

H V ROSS ROBERTSON (Labour—Manukau East) : Kia ora tātou, nō reira e te Whare, e ngā iwi, e ngā reo, e ngā hau e whā. While the House sits in urgency Auckland’s National members of Parliament sit on their bums. I should say “bottoms”; I withdraw and apologise for using that language. But they sit there, and I issue a challenge to them to get up on their hind legs and take a call. Kia kaha! Be strong and take the challenge to rise and defend this legislation, because this legislation needs to be defended. The House is sitting in urgency. It is a constitutional outrage. For the Auckland members of Parliament not to stand to take a call to justify what they are doing shows contempt for the people who voted for them. They are not taking a call.

I challenge the Prime Minister, John Key, to take a call. I challenge Steven Joyce to take a call. I challenge the Hon Murray McCully to take a call. I challenge the Hon Wayne Mapp to take a call. I challenge the Hon Jonathan Coleman to get up to take a call. I challenge the Hon Paula Bennett to get up to take a call. I challenge the Hon Pansy Wong to get up to take a call. I challenge the Hon Judith Collins to get up to take a call. I challenge the Hon Maurice Williamson to get up to take a call. They are all members of the executive. But that is not to let those who are not on the executive get away scot-free. What about Sam Lotu-Iiga? Why has he not stood up to take a call? He is the silent giant, they say; he has not taken a call. Then there is Kanwaljit Bakshi. He is sitting here. I challenge him to stand up to take a call to justify what the Government is doing.

This legislation is legislatively flawed, it is democratically flawed, and the people of Greater Auckland are absolutely floored. This bill, I guarantee members, will be back before Parliament before the next general election. I have no doubts about that. The Associate Minister of Local Government, who is sitting in the chair, is nodding his head. He knows that the legislation is being rushed through, that it is not being done democratically. We need to sit down and debate it in ordinary time so that it is done properly.

I turn now to the number of councillors. The number of councillors is set at 20. Obviously, the issue perplexes the Government, and it also perplexes me. The fact that there are only 20 indicates to me an inability on the part of the Government to recognise that bigger is not necessarily better. The number of councillors proposed is 20, and that will produce wards of approximately 49,000 voters with a population of about 70,000—70,000! That means two things and I see two difficulties. First of all, it will be difficult for candidates to campaign effectively. The size of the wards that the councillors are supposed to represent is almost on a par with the area that a member of Parliament represents. It has to be asked how people can campaign effectively and do the job properly. I think the size of the wards will also undermine the accessibility and the accountability of the councillors. The wards are too big; the councillors will not be able to get around them and they will not be able to do the job. I ask the Associate Minister how the candidates can campaign effectively. Will they become like central government members of Parliament?

SU’A WILLIAM SIO (Labour—Māngere) : That was a brilliant speech from the member for Manukau East, Ross Robertson. I say “Well, done, Ross.” to him. I want to re-emphasise the position of Labour in regard to Māori seats, and then I will talk a little about our position on the mayoral position. Then I will get on to the Pacific Advisory Board, which we are putting forward in an amendment.

Hon Tau Henare: Advisory board!

SU’A WILLIAM SIO: It is important, I say to Mr Henare. The Pacific communities throughout Auckland were prepared to put on hold their ambition to be included at the top table, so that they could include and advocate for Māori first and foremost. It was the strong feeling of Pacific communities in the Auckland region and throughout this land of ours that unless the Government got it right for Māori, it would never get it right for Pacific and other minority groups. So it was important that we unite to advocate strongly to ensure that Māori are part of the top table of the Auckland Council.

Those members who did not have the opportunity to listen to the submissions would have missed out on the sea of emotion and passion that people displayed. I myself was quietly surprised to find that those who submitted in support of Māori seats were mainly Pākehā. About 60 percent of those submitters said that it was time, that the super-city was a new beginning, and that it was important for the Government to be more visionary and to provide strong leadership for the rest of the nation to follow.

I will give members a quote from one of the submitters. Jill Greer from Beachhaven on the North Shore submitted on only two issues, the water supply and the Treaty of Waitangi. The first thing she said was “Any form of water supply should never be privatised.” The second thing she said, with regard to the Treaty of Waitangi, was “There is no mention at all of the legal obligation to recognise the Treaty by insisting that at least four seats on any council are allocated to Māori and that other minority groups must be officially recognised.” I have another quote, from Robyn Laing. Again, it gives members a bit of a taste of the overwhelming support for Māori seats. Robyn Laing from Mount Eden in Auckland said: “It is imperative that there is Māori representation on the council. We are in partnership with the tangata whenua.” All the members on the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee would have heard those submissions and would have felt the passion, the love, the desire that for Pākehā, for Pasifika, and for Māori the super-city was a new beginning, and we ought to include Māori on the council.

I will share with members an excerpt from the submission made by Ngāti Whātua. I think it is important that people hear it. They said: “The simple truth of the matter is that the present system has not delivered Māori councillors in Auckland City local government, particularly mana whenua councillors. Auckland has had an Auckland City Council since 1851 and there has never been a Ngāti Whātua councillor in any of those 158 years. To the best of our knowledge there has never been any mana whenua councillor in Auckland City. We acknowledge that since the 1960s there have been occasional and intermittent taura here councillors. We can identify eight taura here altogether over the 158 years, but that is in the context where Auckland City has usually had 19 or 21 councillors sitting on any 3-year term council.” I think that is another point that people need to understand. Ngāti Whātua also said in its submission: “The contribution which Māori make to Tāmaki-makau-rau is very substantial and has always been so. Think of the acts that first created the city of Auckland in the first place: the invitation for Hobson to come here and bring his Government, and the transfer of lands to enable all that to occur. Think further, in the case of Ngāti Whātua o Orākei, of the other contributions that they have made and continue to make to this city. To keep it very local, look at the spaces available to the public at Orākei”—

Hon GEORGE HAWKINS (Labour—Manurewa) : I want to bring something completely new into this debate: Pansy Wong. I have not heard from the Hon Pansy Wong in this debate at all. In fact, I do not think I have heard her speak since she was re-elected. I have not heard her since she got into Cabinet. It is interesting to note that there are only a couple of National members here. We have—

Hon John Carter: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. As you know, the member has been here long enough to know that one cannot refer to the absence of members. I would ask you to ask him to correct that.

Hon GEORGE HAWKINS: I am very pleased to see some National members here—very, very pleased. It does not take long to count them up. There are one, two from Auckland. We have two from Auckland. I am interested to see that Dr Jackie Blue, who sat on the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, is here. She has been about as active as the statue of King Dick out in Parliament grounds is. In reality, the National members are not taking calls now, and we have to ask why they are not. I think they are treating this Parliament with contempt.

I challenge Pansy Wong to come here to the Chamber as the member for Botany, and to say something. She does not say anything about women’s affairs, yet half the population of Auckland are women. One would think that she would be here to represent the viewpoint of women in Auckland, but is she? Not at all. I think that Pansy Wong should be ashamed of herself. I challenge her to take the next call, to get up and have a go, because she also represents a group of people who are a big and significant part of South Auckland: the Asian community. We know that the National Government is not acknowledging, working for, and speaking on behalf of Pacific Islanders. The member for Maungakiekie, Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga, is not saying a thing. We have Pansy Wong, on behalf of Asians, not saying a thing.

On looking around the Chamber I have to say it is great that this Parliament has someone like Su’a William Sio to represent the Pacific Island community and the Māngere electorate. He is not too scared to get up and say what really matters. You see, these people will lose representation when the changes come in—the Pacific Island group, the Asian group—and where are those members? Where is the member for Maungakiekie? Where is the member for Botany? They should be jumping up immediately and having a say, defending people and defending the bill. Well, perhaps it is a big ask; one cannot defend the indefensible. Maybe that is why those members are not having a say.

But in reality, when we look at wards, we see it is possible—and, I suspect, highly likely—that the National Government will go for big wards, because that will suit its purpose better than having wards where Pacific Islanders, Asians, and Māori people could get in. My electorate has more Māori people in it than any other general seat, and they are disappointed that the National Government has turned its back on the Māori people. I blame John Key for that. John Key and his Government have a Minister like Pansy Wong, who says nothing, just nods her head, and lets things go through. When you come to Parliament, you come to represent your people, and you cannot do that from your Beehive office. When you are the Minister of Women’s Affairs, you cannot do that job by saying very, very little. You have to be upfront in defending the rights of women in Auckland.

The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker): Before I take the next call, I would remind members that the Chairperson does not do much. The references to “you” are out. I do not sit in a Beehive office doing those things.

PHIL TWYFORD (Labour) : I want to make some comments about representation—

Hon Ruth Dyson: Is no National Party person taking a call?

PHIL TWYFORD: It seems that the members on the other side of the Chamber are not interested in this debate and do not place a very high priority on it.

Hon Ruth Dyson: No Auckland MPs.

PHIL TWYFORD: Very few Auckland MPs; they seem to have given up entirely on this debate. But we will press on, because issues of representation are fundamental to the super-city project and fundamental to democracy. If the rules are not fair, if they are not seen to be balanced, transparent, and fair, and if every person in Auckland, every neighbourhood, every community, does not have an equal say in the affairs of the city, then that is not democratic. It will certainly mean that the overriding objective of increasing participation in civic engagement will not be met.

The Government got off to a bad start in this area, with its proposal for at-large councillors. It is absurd to expect individual candidates for the Auckland Council to stand in an electorate of 1.4 million people and 5,000 square kilometres. The public reaction to that proposal, which presumably came from the Minister of Local Government, was overwhelmingly negative. The Government has claimed that it is listening, that it has backed down and done a U-turn on that idea, but it is clear from the bill, it is clear from the commentary, that it is attempting to achieve the same objectives through the back door, with its idea of multi-member wards that are almost 2.5 times bigger than a parliamentary electorate. It is at-large elections through the back door. It is clear that the wards will be so big that they will undermine fair representation, and many communities in Auckland simply will not be represented. One ward will be the size of some of the existing cities, and will likely have three representatives. That is an unacceptable local government ratio of representatives to citizens. The submitters to the select committee process were strongly against at-large councillors. I think if we re-opened the select committee hearings now, we would find that the submitters would be equally against multi-member wards, which create very, very large electorates. People wanted fair representation, and they wanted their councillors to be directly accountable to local communities.

In the same vein, Labour believes that the number of councillors proposed for the Auckland Council is too small. Twenty councillors for a city of 1.4 million people is inadequate. It is just not enough. It means that there will be approximately one councillor for 49,000 Auckland voters. To remedy that, Labour has tabled an amendment that would push up the number of councillors to 25. That is one of a number of measures Labour is proposing in this debate, in order to create a more representative, fairer, and more balanced model for the new super-city.

As well as introducing more councillors, the best thing this bill could do is to implement the single transferable vote (STV) system of voting for the Auckland Council, at all levels—for the mayoralty, for the council, and for the local boards. It is just one of a number of flaws in this bill that the Government has chosen to adopt the first-past-the-post voting system. One of my colleagues mentioned earlier that there is a pattern in Auckland City of mayors being elected on around 20 percent of the vote, under first past the post. This Government is proposing to use the same voting system in the Auckland super-city to elect the mayor of the new structure for one-third of our country’s population. It is proposing to load up the super-mayor with extra powers, under a voting system that will probably deliver a mayor who attains only 20 percent of the vote. What kind of legitimacy, what kind of popular mandate, will that mayor have under the new system? Not very good, I suggest. The STV voting system is clearly fairer. By definition, under STV every vote counts. Therefore, it is likely to increase the level of civic engagement with the political process. STV has a track record of delivering greater diversity in terms of minority representation.

CATHERINE DELAHUNTY (Green) : Tēnā koutou katoa. My colleagues from the Green Party have spoken with eloquence about the reasons why we are opposing the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. I totally agree with the points made by Sue Bradford, who spent many hours on the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, and also the experienced perspective of Sue Kedgley, who has spent many years in local government politics. I also agree with Keith Locke, an Auckland MP of many years’ standing, who has spoken clearly on the key issue of the single transferable vote being a better model for any new council.

I want to speak strongly today on the issue of Māori seats as a central point in the debate. I spent 3 days on the select committee, which was a very valuable experience. This was not only because I appreciated working with more experienced MPs on that committee. I also appreciated the leadership of the Hon John Carter as chair, and also the work of the officials. I appreciated working with Nikki Kaye, who asked just about as many questions of individual submitters over those 3 days as I did. She showed a genuine interest in the community group submitters as well. Maybe MPs can congratulate themselves on a well-run event, but I do not think the submitters were quite so happy. My brief conversations with a number of groups, after they gave their submissions, included comments like “ridiculously brief opportunity”, “we feel patronised”, and “give us Māori seats”. Many of them marched on the hīkoi, to no avail, as did the Green Party.

In addition to a number of issues that were repeatedly raised by submitters, there was the issue of absolute assurance that the assets of the Auckland region would not be privatised or further alienated from the control of citizens. It has been said that the Local Government Act protects those assets, but this legislation does not clarify or explicitly recognise the people’s concerns about this matter, which were consistently raised during the select committee. The people wanted it spelt out in this new governance arrangement, and they did not get it.

Mainly I want to speak about the political and constitutional opportunity lost for Tāmaki-makau-rau and the country as a whole. The mana whenua and Māori seats were recommended by the royal commission, and they were supported by a huge number of submitters. These submitters included a wide diversity of groups, many of whom supported the calls of tangata whenua for Māori seats. I was particularly interested in the tauiwi and other Pākehā groups who supported this call. I will give a short sample of the roll call when I was present at the select committee for a short time over those 3 days. As somebody mentioned earlier, Alasdair Thompson from the Employers and Manufacturers Association (Northern) Inc., an organisation not known for its support for tino rangatiratanga, was present, and took a strong stand. Also present were representatives from the National Council of Women, the Auckland City Youth Council, the Ponsonby Economics Study Group, the Tamaki Community Board, the Auckland Regional Council, the Auckland branch of Grey Power, and the Cook Islands Community Forum. The Cook Islands Community Forum representatives were particularly notable, as were the other Pasifika groups, for their strong support for mana whenua and the rights of tangata whenua, as people whom they saw had mana whenua status and who would support them in their struggle for representation, but who came first as the first people of Aotearoa. Then there were the universities and the Auckland University of Technology. Many, many individuals over those 3 days supported Māori seats. In other words, 80 percent of the tauiwi submissions supported Māori seats.

At that point I felt heartened that I live in a country where progress is being made, only to find the legislation has failed the people. Māori, or mana whenua, seats on any council are not an accurate reflection of the rights affirmed by Te Tiriti o Waitangi; they are just a start. Tau Henare made good reference to the historical reasons for Māori seats. Since 2001 Environment Bay of Plenty has had Māori seats, as Mita Ririnui has said. It solves by no means all of the political issues for tangata whenua of that rohe, but it is a start, and the Green Party supported that legislation at the time. But now that Māori seats have been suggested for Auckland, they could have been a useful step towards a better governance model for Tāmaki.

It was more than poignant to hear Ngārimu Blair from Ngāti Whātua ki Ōrākei speaking on Back Benches the other night of how his tūpuna would have been shocked to see him standing there in a bar, talking about being refused a seat at the table of governance. His tūpuna would have been shocked because his tūpuna had allowed Pākehā access to much of the land in Tāmaki, and now their mokopuna are today begging for a seat at a table of governance, in a city built on whenua belonging to those people. What about Ngāti Te Ata, Tainui, Kawerau a Maki, Te Waiōhua, Ngāi Tai ki Tāmaki, as well as Ngāti Whātua ki Ōrākei—me ngā hapū katoa of Tāmaki—not to mention Ngā Hau E Whā whānau?

Sometimes an idea, like Māori seats in Tāmaki, reaches a critical mass with support from a wide range of people. In 2009 it was time for this positive step. Everyone was ready to support an option, even if people were not sure how many seats, whether mana whenua or Māori roll, or how it would play out. The communities were ready to acknowledge that Western democracy needed modification for a Pacific reality and as a step towards a te Tiriti relationship. The people were ready, but the Government denied them. Many of them stood on Takaparawhau in 1978. I stood there 6 months pregnant with the hope that my child would live in a just, Treaty-based society. But that child is now 30 years old and we are not there yet.

I remember Simon Bridges saying on the select committee that he got elected and that he has Māori whakapapa, which proves that we do not need the seats. But did he campaign as a member of his hapū seeking to advance tino rangatiratanga to the people of Tauranga? Was that the public platform that he campaigned on in his electorate? Then we have Ray Ahipene-Mercer on the Wellington City Council, who opposed Māori seats. But he admitted that he could not get elected by campaigning on Māori issues. He could only get elected by campaigning on environmental issues. Enough said. One cannot get there by being who one is. One cannot get there by representing one’s hapū. One can only get there by acting as an individual. That is the Westminster system, and it does not work. We are in Aotearoa. It is time to recognise te Tiriti. It is time to modify our democracy in a step towards the 1840s agreement.

People were really clear in their submissions. They were really passionate. They were really diverse. So it is incredibly disappointing to see the Minister and the Government fail the people on this issue. Many of us walked in the rain on the hīkoi with an expectation that the new inclusive Government would be more flexible. As the people said on that hīkoi: “Ka whawhai tonu mātou, ake, ake, ake.” If members do not know, that means: “We will fight on for ever.” The people will fight on for ever, because they have not been heard.

The Green Party is very, very disappointed that a select committee that promoted reasonableness has failed the critical test in our time. It is not often that this country is prepared to step up on this issue. God knows, I know, having worked as a Treaty educator for the last 25 years, how hard it has been to get Pākehā to step up. And when they step up what does the Government do? When they step up they are ignored. The passion of all those communities has been trashed, and it is being trashed again before this Committee today.

I say again to those people out there: do not give up. We will not be giving up. The Green Party will certainly not be giving up. Ka whawhai tonu mātou, ake, ake, ake. Kia ora.

Hon CHRIS CARTER (Labour—Te Atatū) : I rise to speak against this legislation. I feel that I can bring some experience to this debate, having been the Minister of Local Government between 2002 and 2005. [Interruption] Thank you very much, Mr Hawkins, for those kind words. Indeed, the Local Government Act, which I guess will be the overriding document to fit this legislation around, currently stands in my name. So I have quite a passionate interest in this legislation. I am also an Aucklander, which will have a direct impact on my life, and on where I live, and on the communities of Te Atatū, Henderson, Kelston, Massey, and Glendene, which I represent in this Parliament.

It was the Labour Government that set up the royal commission to look at Auckland governance. In the 3 years that I served as the Minister of Local Government, I had a very frustrating experience at times dealing with myriad conflicting ambitions among the seven Auckland territorial authorities, especially around the issue of transport organisation, which is so critical for our city. The Labour Government recognised that some improvement needed to take place in the governance structures of Auckland. Indeed, almost every local body politician one spoke to in the Auckland region agreed with that. It was just about finding a way forward. The royal commission was set up, it went through an exhaustive process, it had lots of excellent submissions, it had great participation from the public, and it came out with a report. But what did the new Government do with it? It adapted it to suit its own agenda. That is why the Labour Party cannot accept the bill as it stands before the Parliament. Catherine Delahunty from the Green Party spoke for about 10 minutes about her passion, her determination for the Green Party to see Māori representation in Auckland.

We have had lots of speeches about that today, and I want to compliment my colleague Phil Twyford and his team, who have been so active in giving the Labour Party’s point of view on this legislation, and why we cannot support it. They have also touched on the critical aspect of having all of Auckland’s communities—

Hon Darren Hughes: He’s emotional.

Hon CHRIS CARTER: Yes, because I care about the city I live in. I care about the communities that are there. I care about the diversity of the city, and how it will be represented as this new super-city. It is really important that “local” means local, that the Māori community and the other communities of Auckland have a say and a participation in how their city is governed, and that they have a say in what happens in regard to the many rules that are made in that city and that impact on their lives.

I heard Mr Hide this morning on National Radio saying that one vote means one vote for all. Of course, the reality is not quite as simple as that. I know that in the 3 years that I was Minister of Local Government one of the issues I was very concerned about then—and Local Government New Zealand said it was concerned about it—was the under-representation of Māori people in local government. There are very, very few Māori elected to community boards, to councils, and as mayors—very few. The reality is that there are barriers to participation. Those barriers are about having the resources to stand; they are about having the widespread appeal to the population. It is a reality.

It is no good to wring one’s hands in here, or come up with populist nonsense on Radio New Zealand as Rodney Hide did this morning, saying that one vote means one vote for all. That is not the reality. We recognise that in this Parliament. We have set aside designated Māori seats. We have done that for over 100 years because we have said that the role and status of the original people of this land—the tangata whenua, the indigenous people of New Zealand—is such that they have a special status. We are all equal, yes, but it does not mean that we are all the same. The reality is that Māori have, first of all, a unique constitutional position in New Zealand as represented in this Chamber with separate Māori seats, but also the reality is that the 16 percent of the population that is of Māori heritage does face barriers to participation in local government. That is the reality. We can just look at the statistics.

Why would we not have Māori seats in Auckland? Why would we not give an opportunity where people are elected to stand as councillors in the new Greater Auckland Council to participate in that council, and compete equally in those seats against other candidates for designated Māori seats? It would absolutely improve the participation and involvement of tangata whenua in Auckland. We want everybody else to be participating as well. Progressive councils in Auckland have already set out to implement one of the ways to do that. In Waitakere City, where I live, we have the Waitakere Ethnic Board, which provides a voice and representation for the many emerging communities in Waitakere city that trace their heritage to Asia, to the Middle East, to Africa, to Latin America. We also have a Pacific Advisory Board and a Māori advisory board, all of which have an active role in shaping how Waitakere City decides on policies and programmes that impact on the lives of the citizens of all those communities who live in our city.

On that basis I would like to support the amendment put up by my Chinese colleague from the Labour Party, Raymond Huo, who proposes to set up by amendment an Asian Advisory Board as part of this legislation. I know that Raymond Huo will not be wanting just an Asian Advisory Bard; he will be hoping that we have a Pacific one. I would rather see Māori councillors, but if we are not going to see that at the moment—we hope we might in the future—at least let us have a Māori advisory board, as well. This is all about participation. It is about really putting the “local” into local.

I see the Minister in the chair at the moment is Pansy Wong, who was New Zealand’s first Kiwi of Chinese heritage to be elected to our Parliament. She is not the only one, of course; we have Raymond Huo from Labour, now. I am wondering how Miss Wong feels about this Asian Advisory Board. She and I are matched together all over New Zealand at ethnic events, because for 6 years I was the Minister for Ethnic Affairs and I am still the spokesman for Labour. I have heard her say so often since the election: “We want real participation for Asian New Zealanders, a real voice in shaping how New Zealand develops.” I have to say to Miss Wong that here is her chance to actually do something about that. I ask her to support Raymond Huo’s amendment to set up an Asian Advisory Board. She has talked so often in the last 6 months about real participation and real decision-making by Asian New Zealanders, and here is her chance to actually do something about that. Here is her chance to say: “Right, I went against the National Party. I said that Raymond Huo is right; it is about participation. It is about putting the ‘local’ back into local government, and I voted for his amendment.” Of course, we all know that she is not going to do that, because she so often has proven in the 6 months she has had the job that she is just a mouthpiece for National’s policies.

The thing I am really worried about is Auckland’s assets. Some of our cities like Manukau City and Waitakere City have been vigilant about guarding our assets. The ratepayers through their council ownership have the port company and they have some airport shares left. I ask Mr Twyford how many billion dollars of assets there are in Auckland at the moment.

Phil Twyford: Twenty-eight.

Hon CHRIS CARTER: There are $28 billion of assets in Auckland at the moment. I wonder whether for Mr Hide and his greedy little ACT Party of exploiters and profiteers—we know them so well from the 1980s and 1990s, do we not—it is actually $28 billion worth of Auckland assets that this is all about. Is it not strange that Auckland is to be amalgamated into a sort of greater Reich, but Wellington, with its myriad of councils, is not to be touched? I wonder whether that has a lot to do with the $28 billion worth of assets. Mr Key made a promise that he would not sell any assets in the first term of a National Government. No such promise has been made about local body assets. I wonder whether Auckland, with its beautiful little treasure chest of $28 billion worth of local assets, is really what Mr Hide and his mates are after.

This legislation is fatally flawed. It has been rammed through under urgency. Here we are in urgency again this week going through this process. It defies and goes against the bulk of submissions that the public made to the royal commission. It defies the royal commission in a number of critical ways; one of them, which I guess is the most important and symbolic, is the Māori wards. My colleague Mr Twyford just talked about the small number of councillors—that is another really important issue.

JACINDA ARDERN (Labour) : It is my pleasure to rise and give a contribution to the Committee of the whole House on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill, as it relates specifically to a group of people who I think have been under-represented in this debate, and who I feel will continue to be under-represented if this bill passes in its current form. The group that I am speaking about comprises 37 percent of Auckland’s population. It is a huge and disenfranchised group, and it is Auckland’s young people. I rise to give my contribution in support of their plight, which they put before the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee.

Before I do that, I will talk about the reasons why it is so important that we give a voice to young people in Auckland. I am not the only person who saw the value of doing that. The royal commission also saw the value of adding greater weight to young people’s voices in the super-city. In fact, it was Rowe who was cited in the royal commission’s report as stating of young people “… their particular needs and interests can slip out of focus in the usual planning and priority-setting processes. All stakeholders wrestled with the question of how to get these voices heard, with most preferring a means of bringing them into the decision-making process—a step further than consultation.” I think the commission made its expectations very clear. It set them out not only for the Government but also for all members of the House. It is now the Government’s responsibility to make those words meaningful. Unfortunately, I fear that that has not happened to date.

I think that the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, according to what I have read and heard, received compelling submissions from the youth sector. Amongst those who contributed were the collective of youth councils and youth forums, which is a strong body in Auckland, ranging from the North Shore to Waitakere, Auckland City itself, Manukau, and other cities. The select committee received submissions from Youth Law, which submitted not once but twice at the request of members of the select committee, who saw much value in what that organisation presented. The Auckland youth - directed environmental organisation also gave its views, as did many, many more organisations. These were not just words on paper; they were not simply submissions penned by one person at a computer late at night. They were submissions that were generated after consultation with a wide group of young people—young people who felt compelled to give their views on this significant issue in a way that we have not seen before. They held council meetings, open forums, and consultation processes. They talked not only to their peers but also to those in senior positions around them who could guide them on how to best ensure that their voices were heard.

The engagement from the youth sector was genuine, and it deserved a genuine response from this Government and from this House. I fear that at the time of presenting the submissions some of those submitters did not always get the respect they deserved, but each submitter advocated for one simple purpose. Submitters did so in different ways, but they submitted for one simple purpose: that their role in the super-city be legislated for. They did not ask for a tokenistic nod in their direction. They did not ask to be acknowledged as a special-interest group that would be consulted from time to time. They asked that 37 percent of Auckland’s population be given a voice at the table, and they did so in a very considered way—and, why?

Why is it necessary that this particular group of people not be treated like a special-interest group, as the current legislation does? Why do they deserve more than that? As the Government should acknowledge, young people are a huge group. We have already covered that point. Young people have a limited ability to engage in the political process. They cannot vote locally unless they have reached the age of 18, yet a large number of them are affected by the decisions that are made, although they have no formal say in the process. And young people are currently under-represented when they can vote. I ask the Government how many young people will be elected via this uber ward - based system, which means that councillors will be in charge of very large wards. How many young people will be elected through that process? I venture to suggest that there will be very, very few. Beyond that we have the additional international obligations provided by the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. There is also the additional uncertainty that the existing youth councils and forums face in the transitional process. Those are all reasons why young people deserve to have a seat legislated for them at the table.

I want to talk about what my Supplementary Order Paper does to remedy the fact that the Government’s response to young people has been tokenistic at best. They have been told that they are a special-interest group and nothing more than that, so I put it to the Government that it has the opportunity to support, in a genuine way, the call made by these young people by supporting my Supplementary Order Paper. It is very simple. My amendments mirror the structures that have been set in place by the Government, with a council and local boards. It establishes parallel bodies. At the top layer there is a youth council, which will have a representative from each of the territorial areas. These youth representatives will be selected by territorial youth forums covering areas that mirror the local board areas, the idea being that young people would therefore have a formal way to come together and have input into the work of the local boards and of the Auckland Council. We have also requested that these structures be afforded all of the relevant support required in order to ensure that they can function appropriately. I tried to ensure that my Supplementary Order Paper means that the greatest possible number of children and young people can participate in the process, and that the local boards have a ready and easy-to-use structure through which to engage with the 37 percent of their populations that are young people whom they purport to represent.

I see no reason why the Government should have any qualms with regard to supporting my Supplementary Order Paper and, therefore, supporting the young people of Auckland generally. Why do I feel so much confidence that the Government will support my Supplementary Order Paper? Well, it supported every submission that came before it in the select committee. At this point I extend a challenge to the Government, and more specifically to the youngest member of the select committee, Ms Kaye. She is young, and as a Government member of the select committee she also heard the submissions from these young people. She supported their submissions, and reassuring nods were given across the table when they talked about legislating for youth representation. They were told that their voices mattered, yet now I am told that the Government is unlikely to support my Supplementary Order Paper.

I call on the Government to not disenfranchise a group of young people when there is no reason for doing that. I call on the Government to not make another generation of young Aucklanders cynical about this process. It is not good enough to tell the young people who engaged in good faith in the select committee process that now, when there is a Supplementary Order Paper that deals with their issues, their plight should instead be shoved off into an omnibus bill in a third round of legislation. That will be 6 months down the track, and we do not even know yet whether it will contain these references. We can deal with the issue now. I also say to the Government members who nodded at the select committee, told young people that this was not their time and that they must wait until after this bill passed to see whether they had crowed loudly enough to get their representation addressed in the third round of legislation, that that is not good enough. Those young people submitted in good faith, their submissions were heard in good faith, and they should be adopted in good faith. Unless the Government can give me a reason why they should not be heard and have their representation dealt with now, I will continue to pursue my Supplementary Order Paper and expect it to be adopted wholeheartedly. Unless I hear a good reason why that should not occur, I will continue to advocate on behalf of young people.

My final plea is that the Government does not act cynically towards these young people and does not create another generation of disenfranchised, cynical young Aucklanders, because doing that will come back to bite it.

Dr RAJEN PRASAD (Labour) : I want to continue the theme of the advisory boards. However, I want to know why members from ethnic communities who are members of the Government are not standing up to take a call. Why are they not advocating for the interests of the ethnic communities of New Zealand, particularly those in Auckland? Those members mix amongst them day in and day out. They know day by day what their interests are. They know day by day what they are saying about what Auckland needs to do to capitalise on their interests, capitalise on what ethnic communities bring to Auckland, and capitalise also on what they are saying. The Royal Commission on Auckland Governance was very clear about their interests. It talked about them, but Mr Bakshi just sits here. He has returned to the House refreshed. More than any one of us, he should be advocating for the interests of the very communities he has come from, rather than reading the newspaper in the House, which is what that National member has been doing. Members from the particular communities that we come from are privileged to be in this House and privileged to represent our communities, and there comes a time when we need to stand up and say what the people are saying. Rather than reading the newspaper, he should tell us what the people are saying.

Labour members have moved amongst them. The people have said that they have come to New Zealand to make a solid contribution. They have committed totally to this process. They have brought their families, they have burnt their bridges in many cases, and they are committed to New Zealand. They want to contribute. What did the royal commission say? These are important members of the Auckland community. There must be a way for them, firstly, to be elected, and, secondly, to participate. What is the best way that they can participate? By having their own advisory boards. Will those members cross the floor?

As for the Minister for Ethnic Affairs, she had one chance. This was one time that that Minister could have gained the same kudos that the previous Government did. The previous Government established the Office of Ethnic Affairs, and it is doing great work. The Minister asked her staff to go up and down the country to teach ethnic communities how to make submissions, and what do you know? They did. The ethnic communities learnt very quickly. They made submissions to the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, but there has not been one word from those members about those submissions, not one representation in favour of ethnic communities making their voices heard through advisory boards. Why are those members not doing that?

What do the ethnic communities bring to New Zealand? They are the defining characteristic of Auckland. They will, before long, represent 20 percent of our population. They are committed to this country. They are committed to Auckland, the city I love and the city in which I live. They want to bring their children up there. They want to use whatever intelligence they have to make Auckland a great city. They want their businesses to do well. They want their religious practices to do well. They want the super-city to really respond to those things. How do those members think it will respond? How can the super-city really understand the interests of those communities, day in and day out? Or is the Government interested only in making it appear that it thinks it is good that we have a multi-ethnic Auckland, and that it is committed to what the ethnic societies bring? We all love going to their functions. We all love attending them, saying hello in their languages, and eating their food. But when the time comes to enable them to participate in a way that is fundamentally the right of every New Zealand citizen, Government members are silent.

Not only that; they are silent on the interests of youth, as well. As my colleague Jacinda Ardern just said, youth will not vote but they will make a solid contribution. The one expectation that our young people in the 21st century have is to be taken seriously by Governments. That is how they want to participate.

The same is said about our Pacific communities. The Government has discounted the interests of Māori. What is it about this Government, which says the right words about our ethnic people, which talks about the advantages of having them in our midst, but when it comes to enabling them to participate reverts to type? What is that type? That type is determined now by the ACT Party.

Dr ASHRAF CHOUDHARY (Labour) : I am delighted to rise to speak to the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill, particularly in relation to the Asian Advisory Board. But before I do that, can I say that I had a lot of time for John Carter, until recent times. He was the chair of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, and I believe he did a great job while we were listening to the submitters. We went to all parts of Auckland. I had the opportunity to sit with him and listen to a lot of the submissions. Every time, he raised hopes. There were high hopes of John Carter. I am really disappointed to see that he has been rolled over. He has been ruled out, again. I thought he had a lot of influence in the National Party, but it looks like he has been ruled out. Time and again I heard that he was very sympathetic to Māori seats and to the Māori people. We heard them in Rodney, we heard them in Manukau, we heard them at the subcommittee, but it looks like John Carter has been ruled out. After all the good things he said in the select committee process, I am very disappointed about that. I thought he was a person who stands up for what he believes in, but, clearly, he has given up on this particular occasion.

Asian people have been in this country for 130 years. I am quite sure that National Party members do not realise that. Asians have been around for a long time. A lot of people came from China, and I am sure Pansy Wong knows that. They have been around for 130 years, but it was not until 1996 that Asian people entered Parliament. I pay respect to Pansy Wong. She came in in 1996. She has been around, but what has she done?

Hon Trevor Mallard: Has she been in Parliament all that time?

Dr ASHRAF CHOUDHARY: All that time, but all she has done is attend Diwali functions and Chinese New Year functions, and that is about all.

Hon Darren Hughes: Free feeds!

Dr ASHRAF CHOUDHARY: For free feeds and to say hello to people in all their languages. That is about all she has done. Now she is joined by Mr Bakshi.

Hon Darren Hughes: He doesn’t even turn up for the free feeds!

Dr ASHRAF CHOUDHARY: He is also turning up for the free feeds. I want to ask those members one question: have they raised an Asian or ethnic issue in their caucus? Have they asked any questions of the Prime Minister as to why something has not been done? Have they asked John Carter what he has done for Asian people? Those members have done nothing. I would like them to take a call to tell us their side, to tell us what they have done for the Asian and ethnic people of Auckland regarding, particularly, Auckland governance. Nearly 20 percent of the population of Auckland is Asian, and that population is growing. Those people will have no opportunity to be represented on the Auckland Council. It is very clear that in the election Mr Bakshi got 7 percent fewer votes in Manukau East than the National Party. Those are the real statistics. They mean that even National Party people did not support him and did not vote for him. Similarly, Ravi Musuku got 7 percent fewer votes than the National Party. People voted for the party but not for those candidates. Recently Melissa Lee got 17 percent of the vote in Mt Albert, half of the National Party’s vote.

Hon George Hawkins: Where is she?

Dr ASHRAF CHOUDHARY: She is not taking any calls. Those members think they represent the ethnic people of Auckland, but they are not speaking up. They are not taking up their cause with their caucus, the Prime Minister, or the Minister concerned. They do not want to do that, because they think they will be gone. The Auckland community is very diverse.

RAYMOND HUO (Labour) : My amendment to the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill proposes that a new clause 12B be inserted after clause 12A. The new clause 12A establishes an Asian Advisory Board, and its purpose is to perform an advisory role for the governing body in relation to its decisions relating to the Asian community, to represent the views of the Asian community, and to enable the participation of the Asian community in the decision-making process of the Auckland Council. Membership of the board will be determined by the governing body in consultation with Asian communities and community leaders within the Auckland region. The Asian Advisory Board will have no fewer than four members appointed by a majority vote of the governing body.

This morning I received an email from Professor Manying Ip, a prominent scholar and Asian community leader, which included her blessing and endorsement. The reason she gave for endorsing my amendment was a simple one: sheer demographics mean that Asians cannot be ignored in any plans for Auckland. The 2006 census found that 234,222 people were recorded as belonging to the Asian ethnic group and living in the Auckland Regional Council area. Chinese made up 42 percent of those, Indian 31.8 percent, Korean 9.1 percent, Filipino 4.2 percent, Japanese 2.3 percent, Sri Lankan 2.2 percent, and Cambodian and Thai 1.4 percent each. Roughly, Asians make up 13 percent of the population of Auckland, which is the largest demographic after Europeans and Māori.

Auckland is the first port of call for many immigrants, and most of them stay there. With about two-thirds of all new Asian migrants settling in Auckland, it is there that the changes are most apparent. Auckland absorbs a disproportionate share of this growth, with an estimated future growth of about 51 percent for the Asian population up to 2016, compared with 46 percent for New Zealand as a whole. The report by the Royal Commission on Auckland Governance pointed out that ethnic minorities are under-represented on Auckland’s councils. After the 2007 elections, 84 percent of the members of Auckland’s councils identify as European, 9 percent as Māori, 4 percent as Pacific, and 4 percent as Asian. The royal commission report provided profiles for Pacific and Asian people in Auckland and identified the challenges that are faced in terms of housing, health, wages, education, skills development, transportation, and socio-economic issues. The royal commission pointed out that engagement with Asian and Pacific communities was critical to improving governance relationships and improving strategies aimed at increasing socio-economic productivity goals. It recommended establishing advisory panels for Pacific, Asian, and other ethnic communities.

However, the bill, as drafted, does not include Asian representation in the reorganisation of Auckland governance. The Supplementary Order Paper that the Labour ethnic caucus introduced moves to enhance and guarantee such representation. Many Auckland councils already use formal structures, such as advisory groups, to ensure that the voices of certain groups in society are heard. An Asian Advisory Board that sits within local government structures would be a proper forum. As honourable members can tell, we are not asking for privilege or for a seat or seats; we are asking for a form of recognition and a proper right of representation.

I urge the Government’s Asian MPs to support the proposed amendments. Under MMP we now have six Asian honourable members of Parliament, three on this side and three on the other side. Again, I urge National’s Asian MPs to support our proposed amendments and work together for this productive, hard-working proportion of the new regime’s population. It is not about politics; it is about what is best for the people of Auckland. We need to work together to ensure that our ethnic community has a say in the future of Auckland. Thank you.

SU’A WILLIAM SIO (Labour—Māngere) : That was a speech made by Raymond Huo, who is a member of the Labour Party and a wonderful advocate for people of Chinese ancestry. He was speaking up on behalf of the many communities of Asian descent in the Auckland region. But unfortunately from members on the other side of the Chamber there is only silence. They have been gagged and, no doubt, instructed by Mr Hide to stay silent. Their silence also gives the impression that they are not listening and that they have already made up their minds.

Labour will continue to advocate for Māori seats because it is the right thing to do. Labour will continue to advocate that we have advisory bodies on the new council that allow participation by Asian communities, Pacific communities, and young people. It has been said by some members from the other side of the Chamber that Auckland is a gifted city, yet when it comes to actually doing something about allowing for the full potential of the city to be realised, it is not in the governance structure put forward by the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. Nothing in the structure encourages full participation of the diverse populations of the Auckland region.

At a later stage I will move an amendment to this bill, adding a new clause that would establish a Pacific Advisory Board. Its purpose would be to perform an advisory role for the governing body in relation to its decisions relating to Pacific Island communities; to represent the views of the Pacific Island communities; and to enable participation of the Pacific Island community in the decision-making processes of the Auckland Council. The membership of that advisory board would be determined by the governing body in consultation with Pacific communities and Pacific leaders within the Auckland region. The Pacific Advisory Board would have no fewer than four members, appointed by a majority vote of the governing body.

It is important that I spell that out, because on the other side of the Chamber fear drives the members’ determination not to allow for Māori participation, and not to allow for participation by Asian communities or Pacific communities. There is fear on the other side of the Chamber. The Government does not want young people to participate. If we are looking to the future—and this structure will be in place for the next 50 to 100 years—is it not right to ensure that we put in place a structure that allows full participation from all the communities of that region? If our aim is to ensure that everybody is able to receive a good quality of life, should we not ensure that the structure has everybody in it? Should we not ensure that the structure is able to realise the full potential that exists in all those communities? There is strong commitment from this side of the Chamber that everybody in that region has a significant role to play, and that it is important for this Government to be able to provide that structure and the particular process to enable it.

I have seen my counterpart on the other side of the Chamber, Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga, advertise furiously in many local newspapers with Mr Key, saying that they were listening, willing, and accessible to Pacific communities. But I have to say—

Hon Member: Missing in action.

SU’A WILLIAM SIO: Yes, there is really no action. It is not in the structure in this legislation. What the Government is saying does not align with what it is about to do. Through this structure, it is giving power to a handful, and—with the greatest respect to this Committee—it is a handful of middle-class white males, who will dominate the council. It has been purposely structured in that way. The Government is deleting the structures that allow representation from all of the different cultures in the area.

CAROL BEAUMONT (Labour) : Tēnā koe, Mr Chair. Last night I spoke about the missed opportunities in this process. An opportunity to really engage with Aucklanders—to use it as a way of ensuring that we strengthen local government and strengthen understanding and participation in local government—was undermined by the processes used by this Government. I will continue to speak about those missed opportunities.

One missed opportunity relates to recognising and responding to the diversity that is Auckland. Diversity is the strength of Auckland; for those of us who live in Auckland, it is one thing we really love about living in Auckland. The diversity has a whole bunch of economic and social benefits for all of us, but, frankly, the Government is failing to deal with this question. I stand here supporting colleagues who have already put forward Supplementary Order Papers to the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill around issues like the Pacific Advisory Board, an Asian Advisory Board, and a Youth Council. These structures will facilitate greater involvement and will recognise that diversity. They will provide benefits not only for those particular groups, but also for the rest of us.

I ask a particular question of a couple of the MPs in the Chamber. I want to know why they have not got up to speak on the possibility, for example, of an Asian Advisory Board. Why is the Hon Pansy Wong sitting over there and not engaging in this debate, at all? She is failing to get up and represent people in Auckland, and the ethnic communities in particular. What about Kanwaljit Bakshi? What is he doing? As someone has said to me, perhaps that silence is his valedictory. Frankly, he is not exactly getting up and telling us about the communities in Auckland that he has dealings with, and he should.

It is not just those MPs. Where are the other Auckland MPs? Where are they and why are they not dealing with this question? The Royal Commission on Auckland Governance talked quite significantly about migrant and refugee communities in Auckland, and it recognised the absolute fact that Auckland is by far the most culturally diverse city in New Zealand, with well-established migrant populations. The proportion of Auckland’s population that was born outside New Zealand has grown in a very short period of time, from 23 percent in 1986 to 37 percent in 2006. So a huge proportion of Aucklanders were not born in Auckland. We need to make sure we are doing a better job of engaging those communities and ensuring they have a voice, because I think we all know, if we are honest, that at the moment there is a real representation gap for many Aucklanders. If we look particularly at those new migrant and refugee communities we see that there is certainly a representation gap. As Jacinda Ardern eloquently outlined before, that is also the case for young people, and, as Su’a William Sio has said, there is also a representation gap for Pacific people.

Ethnic diversity in Auckland is increasing, and there will be different requirements and needs. Ms Kaye can sit across the Chamber and whistle all she likes, but the reality is that this is a very important question. I do not know the figures for Auckland Central, but in the Maungakiekie electorate—and where is the MP for Maungakiekie? He has been strangely silent during this debate. Let me tell members about the figures for Maungakiekie.

Jo Goodhew: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I ask for your assistance in reminding the member—and it has been an ongoing theme—that it is not appropriate to refer to members who are not present in the Chamber. We all need to take some time to be elsewhere to continue with our duties, and therefore it is inappropriate to refer to a member’s absence. I ask for your assistance in this matter.

Hon Trevor Mallard: It was a very simple reference: “Where is the member?”. We know that the member has not taken a call. His absence from the Chamber would not have been recognised were it not for the fact that the junior National whip has, by way of her point of order, drawn further attention to it. It is my view that the comment was a passing reference rather than a heavy focus. I remind you, Mr Chairperson, that this matter is not covered in a Standing Order; it is a convention. It is a convention and not a requirement in this Chamber. If members choose to breach conventions, clearly there is some risk, which goes both ways. But it is not a requirement of the Standing Orders not to refer to the absence of members.

The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker): I draw members’ attention to Speaker’s ruling 24/8: “It is a convention that we do not make reference to the fact that a member is away or is not in the member’s seat.” A convention, in my view, is as strong as a rule. Convention is the kawa of this Chamber. Who turns up at a marae and says that they will ignore the kawa of the marae? People do not do that, and I advise the member that he would be very unwise to do so here. If it is the kawa of this place that we do not refer to the absence of a member, then we abide by it. I say to the member who spoke last, Trevor Mallard, that I would have had some sympathy for his comments had it not been for the fact that he was shouting out interjections about where he thought the member was, and was making the situation very clear. I see by his smile that he accepts he is guilty as charged. I say to members that it is a convention, so let us respect the convention just as we would respect the kawa of a marae. The kawa of this place is that we do not make passing references to the absence of members.

Hon John Carter: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Is it appropriate to refer to the absence of Trevor Mallard even if he is present?

The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker): No, that is not a point of order. I point out to members that we have successfully frittered away the time, and it is now 1 o’clock and time for the suspension for lunch. Before members go, I draw their attention to an agreement reached by the Business Committee. In accordance with its decision, question time will be held today at 2 o’clock. After that, Carol Beaumont will have 1 minute and 16 seconds remaining to speak, if she wishes.

• Debate interrupted.

• Sitting suspended from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.

CAROL BEAUMONT (Labour) : Before we broke for lunch I was talking about the need for Auckland MPs to be engaged in this debate. There has been a sad lack of engagement by Auckland MPs. In particular, I really hope that Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga, the MP for Maungakiekie, will show some interest in this matter by taking a call. Local government is hugely important to the people of that electorate.

Earlier on I was talking about the Asian Advisory Board and speaking in favour of that amendment, which has been put up by my colleague Raymond Huo. The electorate of Maungakiekie is an interesting example of just how diverse the Auckland region is. Let me tell members about it. The population described as Asian—a very large category, of course—numbers 22.3 percent. It is a very significant group. It is made up primarily of Indian and Chinese people. Pacific peoples make up 19 percent of the electorate. I am making the point that diversity is very, very marked in Auckland, and perhaps some members are not familiar with that.

NIKKI KAYE (National—Auckland Central) : I want to pick up on the comments made by some of the previous speakers this morning. Ms Ardern made a number of comments about youth representation. It is true that there were some pretty impassioned speakers on the subject of youth representation at the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee. We held a number of public meetings on the issue and we received some great contributions from across Auckland on the issue. But as I said to Ms Ardern the other day, a number of issues will be dealt with in the third Auckland bill. The issues around youth representation, Pacific representation, and support for groups with disabilities have been flagged as issues that will be addressed in the next bill.

I say to those listening that all the Supplementary Order Papers that have been put forward by Labour members are just an opportunity for Labour members to talk about issues other than the issues they do not want to talk about—which are the issues within this legislation. The reason they do not want to talk about the issues within this legislation is that, as many members have already noted, the Labour Party supports a unitary authority for Auckland.

Labour has moved to a position where it actually supports 20 local boards. So we are in a position that is unique: we are, inarguably, on the cusp of one of the most important changes in local government in terms of Auckland’s governance, but we are in an odd situation whereby the Opposition is spending a whole lot of time talking about everything but the legislation, because it actually supports the legislation. Labour supports one council, and it supports 20 local boards.

I must say it took Labour quite a while to come to the position of supporting 20 local boards. The reason it came to that position is that when we were going through the select committee process Mr Twyford recognised that he was in big trouble with the Labour Party caucus. He was in trouble because he had argued for only six local entities, and some members of his party were frustrated. Su’a William Sio and many other Labour members did not want to campaign in 2011 as the party that argued for no local representation.

I am proud to be supporting a bill that will finally deliver a strong regional entity for Auckland. It will finally deliver grassroots democracy for Auckland. I want to touch on another issue that has been raised during the debate today, particularly by the Green Party, and I acknowledge Catherine Delahunty and the contribution she made when she sat on the select committee. A lot of myths have been spoken about the powers of local boards. I want to make this very clear: the people who came to the select committee said they wanted funding. They also said they wanted decent functions and powers. The Government delivered on those things for the people of Auckland.

Members opposite said that the Auckland Council will have the ability to override a lot of what the local boards do. That is absolutely false. Provisions in the bill, in clause 13D in particular, make it very clear that, with some exceptions, decisions will be made at the lowest possible level in terms of non-regulatory activity. So any member who stands in the Chamber and says anything different is speaking a load of hogwash.

Today we are delivering to the people of Auckland a strong, regional entity with strong local boards. I feel for those community board members who came to the select committee and said they had been constantly overridden. We are finally delivering to them the local democracy they need. I am proud to be supporting this legislation. It will finally give them a strong local entity so that they will be able to deliver for their communities. Any assertion to the contrary is wrong.

The other point I want to make is that the third Auckland bill will contain an independent dispute resolution mechanism, so if there is a situation where the Auckland Council tries it on and tries to grab more power, the resolution mechanism will enable the local board members to be able to go through that process and ensure they do get responsibility over local matters.

I am very proud to be in the Chamber to support this bill. I am proud to support one strong regional entity for Auckland, and 20 to 30 local boards. That is also what the Labour Party supports. It is disappointing that members opposite stand and talk about everything but the core parts of the legislation, at this historic time in Auckland’s history—indeed, in New Zealand’s history. I am proud to stand in support of the legislation.

LYNNE PILLAY (Labour) : I comment firstly on the words of the previous speaker, Nikki Kaye. The principles that she espouses are so dear to her heart; I have no doubt about that. I sat in on the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee a number of times, and I acknowledge that Nikki Kaye participated very fully. She asked a lot of questions, but the reality is that what she wanted to achieve, and what she believed that she had achieved, simply did not happen. The process was made a mockery of, and so was Nikki Kaye’s contribution to the process and that of the other National members on the select committee. I congratulate certainly my colleagues on this side of the Chamber, but also the Green Party on the quality of its contribution to the debate on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. I acknowledge Catherine Delahunty, who was at the select committee, and Sue Bradford, because they both listened really hard and agreed with us about the basic principles of democracy.

We talk about grassroots, but the proposal that National is saying is so absolutely fantastic—to break up 30 local boards—will turn into the competitive tendering model that is exactly the way the National Party is renowned for acting. I will name a few local projects within Waitakere. My colleague Darien Fenton has talked to me about the North Shore and the projects there. I want to talk about Project Twin Streams, which is absolutely renowned and came second in an international prize; the parenting day that is run in Waitakere; Trees for Babies; Violence Free Waitakere; EcoMatters Environment Trust; WeedFree Trust; and all the projects that support our children. I ask Nikki Kaye to take another call. I really congratulate her on getting on her feet, because that is a bit of a first for National members. I would like her to take a call and explain very clearly how—with this many boards and the competitive approach—we will see funding for really worthwhile projects like those I mentioned, which encapsulate a whole city, if not several different areas. The Government simply says that these local boards will be able to deliver those projects with a minimal budget and with no support at all, but we know what will happen and what they will actually be given.

We note that the Government has absolutely ignored the recommendation from the Royal Commission on Auckland Governance about a Social Issues Board. We on this side of the Chamber would be very keen for Nikki Kaye to take another call and explain how youth will be represented on the Auckland Council. The member who is gesturing at me, Paul Quinn, may also like to take a call on the issue of Māori seats. Never mind the rhetoric about what happened, how the Government listened, and how the community groups were great; I think Government members should front up and explain really clearly how this bill will deliver for community and minority groups in the greater region of our city. It simply will not, and the National Government knows that. It has no interest in seeing delivery for those groups.

The people who are giving the Government advice and who are saying how wonderful this bill is are the business people of Auckland. Theirs are the only positive comments I have seen about this bill from any group throughout the region. I would like National members to justify their actions, which we on this side of the Chamber—and, I know, the Green Party—see as absolutely immoral.

I acknowledge again all those submitters, because the common sense that came from those submissions at the select committee, and the unity of purpose, was absolutely second to none. But it all fell on the deaf ears of National Party members. They simply did not listen, including on the issue of their multi-member wards, which we know are just a sham because of the size of those wards. My colleague Phil Twyford talked about that issue. It is a ratio of one councillor to almost 50,000 people.

DARIEN FENTON (Labour) : I want to get back to another topic. Mr Key called for an uprising in Rodney. He did not mean Rodney Hide, although he got that as well, but boy did he get one in Rodney District! That was because of the Cabinet decision that was suddenly announced out of the blue to exclude north Rodney from the super-city. It caught locals and the Auckland Regional Council by complete surprise. They were shocked and horrified. Let us remember that the Government wanted to split the Rodney district at the Pūhoi River and Makarau River, severing the northern townships and settlements, as well as isolating six regional parks that all Aucklanders treasure: Mahurangi, Scandrett, Tāwharanui, Pakiri, Te Ārai, and Ātiu Creek. So the people of Rodney organised. They organised a meeting, which was held last week and was packed with angry residents. Speaker after speaker expressed their views about the very dumb idea of merging Rodney north of Wairoa with the Kaipara District Council.

The Auckland Regional Council voted unanimously last week to demand that the Government leave the Auckland boundaries alone. That decision was undemocratic, just like the rest of the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. I have to say that the Prime Minister has marginally redeemed himself on this one by making yet another U-turn. Possibly it is because part of Rodney is in his electorate. Perhaps that is the reason. The people were up in arms and on the march, and he would have paid for it in his electorate. Mind you, people do not forget that quickly or easily. This Government will pay the price for mucking Rodney around.

I am really pleased that the Government reversed its decision, because it was a decision that we would have all paid for. Services and the quality of life in the northern townships and settlements in rural areas would have declined. Rates would have gone up, some of the coast’s exceptional natural beauty would have been lost, and the regional parks would have been put at risk. Greedy developers would have moved in, and the Kaipara District Council would have had no chance of stopping them. I say again that the process was appalling. The northern boundary change was never put out for public consideration. Most—well, all—Rodney residents had no say on the issue, even though they made enormous efforts to be heard by the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee. They came along and put in a huge amount of effort to be heard, yet suddenly out of the blue came this decision. Why did they have to be put through all that trauma? Why did they have to go through that? I say good on Rodney for organising, and good on it for the uprising. I do not mean Rodney Hide. I say good on the people of Rodney, and all power to their arms.

Then there is Hunua. Poor old Dr Paul Hutchinson—

Lynne Pillay: Hutchison.

DARIEN FENTON: Is it Hutchison or Hutchinson?

Dr Paul Hutchison: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy): I do not think we need to have your dissertation again. I inform Darien Fenton that the member to whom she was referring is called Hutchison.

DARIEN FENTON: Hutchison?

The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy): Yes. There is no “N”.

DARIEN FENTON: Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson. I will make an additional point. If we are going to have a name-pronouncing competition, may I please be called “Dah-rien”, not “Darry-en”. Thank you.

Poor old Dr Paul has not been listened to. The people of the south have not been listened to by this Government. The boundary in the south will remain unchanged. The current Franklin District will be split just south of Pukekohe, with the rest going into the Waikato. The boundary now cuts Waiuku in two, and the hairpin in the motor racing track on the southern edge of Pukekohe is in the Waikato. How mad is that for those poor people?

By the way, that is not what the royal commission said. It recommended that there should be no change to either the northern boundary or the southern boundary. The commission set the southern boundary at the Waikato River, with Environment Waikato and the Tainui people responsible for managing the river. But the Government has ignored the royal commission, it has ignored the people, and it has ignored the local member, Dr Hutchison. Now we have bewildered, confused, and angry people in the south. We have fixed one end of Auckland, for now, but people at the other end are just as up in arms as the people of Rodney were, because the towns of Waiuku and Pukekohe will be split right down the middle. That is completely crazy. I feel sorry for the local member because he has to wear this. He is making noises about the Local Government Commission’s discussion on boundaries, but I do not think the people will be satisfied with that.

SUE BRADFORD (Green) : One important area that has not been given much attention so far in this debate is the matter of how the new super-city is going to deal with water. Given Auckland’s high annual rainfall and the increasing incidence of weather bomb problems, the Green Party is concerned that the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill recommends that the management of Auckland’s stormwater be separated from the management of Auckland’s water and waste water. This decision adds weight to worries that Watercare Services is being shaped into a neat, vertically integrated business, funded by revenues from water and waste-water charges, and ready for a possible sell-off. That is the deepest fear we have. That business model would be upset by Auckland’s stormwater challenges, but then public services do not always lend themselves to market solutions.

At the moment I understand that North Shore, Manukau, and Waitakere deliver the three local water services in an integrated way. North Shore City Council, for example, recognises how intertwined the three water services are, whether or not people like it, and understands that they need to be managed together, for a whole host of reasons. Super-city proposals to break up the water service divisions of North Shore, Manukau, and Waitakere will not serve anyone’s interests well. In the old days, stormwater was managed by council roading departments, but even that will not be possible under the new governance proposals, because roads are to be managed by a separate transport infrastructure agency, which will have little interest, I imagine, in stormwater.

Auckland’s stormwater cannot be allowed to flow through the widening cracks in these reforms. Integrated management of our stormwater assets, ponds, and flow paths is essential. It is also imperative that all water management and control remain within public ownership, with clear accountability mechanisms, transparent pricing, and a strong focus on meeting both ecological and human imperatives. This is a debate that will continue when the third governance bill comes before Parliament later this year, but I think it is important that we signal our concerns now about the negative outcomes of clauses 23 and 24, which are already embedded in the legislation we are dealing with today.

A second and related issue is around who will really plan the super-city, and how. The Government has talked a lot about how the new arrangements will aid effective planning for the region. Indeed, one of the reasons the Green Party supported the super-city proposal to some extent was that we could see that the region would benefit from far more coherent region-wide planning in areas of critical infrastructure such as water and transport. We want to see sustainability at the heart of the new Auckland configuration, and a city where there is a strong, healthy, safe, and fair society living within its environmental limits. The Greens also believe that Auckland should have the right to determine its own destiny without being effectively controlled from Wellington or elsewhere.

We are concerned by recent events that indicate a major shift in the locus of decision making. For example, the Minister of Transport, the Hon Steven Joyce, is leading the charge by seeking to build a four-lane highway from Pūhoi to Wellsford. Despite having had a close association with the Rodney and North Shore Districts over many years, I have never sensed a huge upswelling of local support for such an option, not in the way there was, for example, for the Albany to Pūhoi realignment or for the Northern Busway. The Pūhoi to Wellsford motorway has never figured in any 10-year plan before now, and it is not part of the Auckland regional transport strategy. From what I can gather, the Minister is simply not listening to Government transport officials, who are really uncomfortable about promoting a four-lane motorway when its benefit-cost assessments simply do not stack up against other transport projects. That is putting aside all the arguments about the use of motorways at all, when investing in public transport would be a far more appropriate option.

I further understand that, in the process of establishing the new Auckland transport agency to replace the Auckland Regional Transport Authority, the Minister has indicated that he wants Auckland transport to basically be centrally controlled from Wellington, probably by the New Zealand Transport Agency. Auckland’s right to determine its own future is also being challenged on another front by the existence of the Auckland Transition Agency, whose job it is to construct the detail of the new city. As part of its work it has already completely cut across the Auckland Regional Council’s regional policy statement processes, while the Government itself continues to undermine the Auckland Regional Council’s growth strategy on issues as diverse as motorways, as opposed to public transport; sprawl and coastal development, as opposed to containment; and, of course, through the recent Resource Management Act changes.

RAYMOND HUO (Labour) : Thank you. Mr Chair, for the opportunity to take another call on the Supplementary Order Paper I put forward. It seeks to establish an Asian Advisory Board. Professor Manying Ip, in her endorsement of such a proposal, gave the simple reason that the sheer demographics would mean that Asians could not be ignored in any plans for Auckland.

Apart from those permanent residents, we cannot ignore other demographic factors. For example, the number of international students arriving in New Zealand rose dramatically from the mid-1990s, peaked at more than 120,000 in 2002, and then stabilised at about 95,000 in 2005. Asian students comprise about 87 percent of all international students, with about two-thirds coming from China.

Permanent Asian residents in Auckland, on the other hand, make up 13 percent of the population. As is noted in the royal commission’s report: “Stakeholders from ethnic communities are concerned about how engaged local authorities are in the issues of concern to them, and how their communities are assisted to participate in council processes.” The royal commission’s report notes that ethnic minorities are under-represented on Auckland’s councils. After the 2007 elections, 84 percent of the members of Auckland’s councils identified as European, 9 percent as Māori, 4 percent as Pacific, and 4 percent as Asian.

As a list member of Parliament, based in Auckland, I had the opportunity to attend the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee public hearings in Auckland. The submission by the Families Commission confirmed that the Auckland region is the most socially and ethnically diverse in New Zealand. Effective representation of those socially and ethnically diverse groups has an important role to play in local government, because it will enable them to contribute effectively to their own good and, therefore, to the greater common good.

Local bodies have historically failed to provide meaningful representation and to achieve the participation of ethnic minorities. This is a good opportunity for the Government to remedy the situation. The establishment of advisory panels for Asian communities, along with the Pacific communities, is sensible and meaningful, and it will be effective. This area is not addressed in the Government’s current legislation. Labour supports the establishment of Pacific and Asian advisory bodies. We believe they should be given a statutory purpose, with direct links into the Auckland Council to ensure that they are recognised and are required to meet with the entire council on a regular basis.

Many speakers have emphasised how important Auckland is to New Zealand. Our country is small, so we must be smarter and more diligent. It is particularly important nowadays, when we are living in a world where commercial trade and financial flows are globalised. We cannot afford to become isolated, and that is evidenced by the trend towards small bilateral and regional free-trade agreements. Countries in other regions are becoming increasingly connected by a complex web of trading arrangements. By engaging Asians—our Kiwi Asians—we will help to strengthen the web of trading arrangements.

I am grateful to the Prime Minister, the Hon John Key, who acknowledged, when addressing Peking University in China in April this year, the importance of the free-trade agreement with China, which was signed by the then trade Minister, and current Labour leader, the Hon Phil Goff. Let me quote the Hon John Key: “When we signed the Free Trade Agreement last year we opened an important door, and now our task is to boldly walk through it.”

Similarly, in respect of the super-city bill—and taking into consideration the Supplementary Order Paper that would set up an Asian Advisory Board—we have opened an important door. It is up to the Government to walk through it. Thank you.

Hon GEORGE HAWKINS (Labour—Manurewa) : First of all, I congratulate Nikki Kaye. She is the only National member who has spoken since 10.30 this morning.

Hon Members: Oh!

Hon GEORGE HAWKINS: That is right. She is the only National member who has spoken since 10.30 this morning.

Chris Tremain: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. We canvassed this point earlier today. The Opposition members continue to refer to the absence of members from the Chamber. I think it is totally uncalled for and unnecessary.

The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy): I believe the member used his words very carefully. He never referred to the absence of anybody. There is quite a suite of Speakers’ rulings about how members can refer to a member’s participation in the debate without actually talking about the member’s absence. Members have been pretty good about that. The member is skirting with it, but he did not break the rules, so I will not uphold the point of order.

Hon GEORGE HAWKINS: I know that the senior Government whip is a little sensitive and perhaps a little embarrassed that Government members will not get up and defend a Government bill, the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. National members will not get up and defend their bill.

This point is quite interesting. When there is a bit of a fight across the Chamber things get a bit lively from time to time. Minister Paula Bennett likes a scrap. She jumps on to teenagers in Henderson and pulls them apart. But when we get to the stage of having a debate in the Chamber, she says nothing—not a thing, at all. All of a sudden, having a battle with the Opposition does not seem too appealing, and that is a very big pity. I would like to hear what Paula Bennett has to say. She is holding her seat in Parliament by 635 votes. That is all. The people out in the west of Auckland want to hear what she has to say about the super-city, the new plan, and the new bill.

Other members are sitting here with the mute button turned on. My very good friend Cam Calder, who stood against me in Manurewa, worked every day from March until election day, knocking on doors and saying how he would represent the people of Manurewa. He has his opportunity now. He has his opportunity during the 16 hours of this debate. But what is he doing? He is sitting there, smiling, and dreaming about playing pétanque or some other game, and how he will be able to go to the community board to ask for some money so people can play that game. I must say that he is the best candidate who has ever stood against me. He actually did some work, and I think that is great. Now he can take it one step further: he can get up and have a say. It is all well and good that he is in Parliament, and I think he is doing better than Richard Worth, but I think he should also start to speak sometimes. He should have something to say on the super-city. That is what we want to hear. What are the member’s views on the super-city? I think that is very important.

Allan Peachey is another guy who I have a lot of time for. I have a lot of time for him. He should have been the Minister of Education. Everyone knows that. I think he was the principal of Rangitoto College. He is an excellent person, and he should have been the Minister of Education. He should get up in the Chamber and start speaking. His colleagues will see that he is better than Anne Tolley if he gets up and starts talking about the super-city, because the super-city is very important.

The other person who I think should get up and start speaking is Melissa Lee. She was one of the first into the debate, really, because she stood as the National Party candidate in Mt Albert. That was one of the big topics—

Hon Darren Hughes: How did that go?

Hon GEORGE HAWKINS: I think it was a close thing. We won by only about 10,000 or 12,000 votes. The reality is that people cannot defend a Government by silence. The members who are sitting here now with their mouths closed just cannot do it.

It is interesting. It is a wee bit like an army. John Key is the general, his colonel is at Cabinet, and probably one or two colonels are working there at the moment. He sends out his sergeant-major. His sergeant-major is Rodney Hide, and he makes a lot of noise on the parade ground. He is thumping it out, telling the people of Auckland what a wonderful thing they are getting, and he has his sergeant, John Carter, running around behind him.

At least we know what they think. At least we know what Rodney Hide thinks about this issue. But we do not know what the honourable member Mr Bakshi thinks about it. He sits there silently.

Hon RODNEY HIDE (Minister of Local Government) : I first of all acknowledge the work of Dr Paul Hutchison in helping us with the issue of the southern boundary, and in working through it.

I am puzzled by the Labour Party. On the one hand it does not support the super-city, but I wonder whether Mr Phil Twyford—

Hon Member: Who?

Hon RODNEY HIDE: —Phil Twyford will vote for this amendment to the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. This amendment is in the name of the Hon George Hawkins, and it intends to adjust the southern boundary. I want to share this amendment with members. This is what the Labour Party wants for Auckland and for New Zealand. The amendment refers to Part 3, clause 18. It states: “Delete (2)(a) and insert the following—”. Members should stay with me because I want Mr Phil Twyford to be very careful about whether he and the Labour Party will be voting for the Hon George Hawkins’ amendment. It inserts the following: “(a) ensure that the southern boundary of Auckland be established …”; I tell Dr Hutchison to wait for it—

Phil Twyford: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairman. I think you will find that the honourable member is referring to an amendment that has been withdrawn some time ago. I would like him to correct his statement.

The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy): I am not sure that is a point of order, but perhaps it is helpful for the members.

Hon RODNEY HIDE: I can see why they wanted to withdraw it; I asked the Hon George Hawkins whether he was sure that he wanted to do it.

Let me explain what the Labour Party’s plan was. It was to “ensure that the southern boundary of Auckland be established south of the current southern Franklin district … boundary and follows, as closely as practicable, the boundary of the Waikato River catchment …”. Officials have told me that that would include all of Taupō. The Labour Party were moving an amendment to include Taupō in the super-city, and it would have included Tongariro National Park, all of Hamilton, and Tokoroa. I am sorry that Simon Bridges is not here, because it included Tauranga as well.

George Hawkins and the Labour Party—until I rescued them from the embarrassment—were moving that amendment. I ask Mr Twyford what made him change his mind. What saw the Labour Party decide that Hamilton, Taupō, Tokoroa, and Tauranga should not be part of this governance super-city in Auckland? Given that the Labour Party has been so vehement in its criticism of the Auckland super-city and what the Government is doing, why on earth would it want to include Taupō, Hamilton, Tongariro National Park, Tokoroa, Cambridge, and Tauranga in the Auckland Council? I have to say that it sums up the contribution we are having from the Labour Opposition. I just wish we had a better Opposition, because it would make us an even better Government.

Dr PAUL HUTCHISON (National—Hunua) : That was a most relevant contribution from the Hon Rodney Hide. I was astounded to hear Phil Twyford’s confusion, let alone how it typifies the confusion of the whole Labour Party. It is absolutely mind-boggling that Mr Twyford’s amendment suggested that the boundary should be south of Franklin’s existing boundary.

Phil Twyford: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairman. I wish to correct the member’s statement. The withdrawn amendment was in the name of the Hon George Hawkins.

Dr PAUL HUTCHISON: That, Mr Chairman, is just as bad, if not worse. Mr Twyford’s comment shows that the spreading infectious confusion is not coming just from him or from George Hawkins. It is undoubtedly cemented in the whole Labour Party. They would never have heard of places like Waikāretu, Aka Aka, Ōtaua or Onewhero, all of which are within the existing southern boundary of Franklin.

I wonder whether it is true that the Labour Party is talking about the real source of the Waikato River, which, indeed, is in the national park. It comes down from Mount Ruapehu, flows into the Tongariro River, and then flows into Lake Taupō. [Interruption] The Hon Rodney Hide is absolutely correct—this is the grasping, nanny State - Labour Party wanting to take over the whole of New Zealand in its unitary authority. What is more, it will probably bring back Helen Clark to run it. We have not heard that theory yet, have we? But that is its plan—to take her away from the United Nations. After all, Phil Twyford is from the United Nations. Labour will bring back Helen Clark to run the super-city and the super - land grab.

I wanted to make a contribution that related to the Manukau Harbour, something one would hope that the Labour members would know a little bit about. Very little has been said about the Manukau Harbour and the difficulty that some constituents of mine have had in trying to set up a ferry service. There are wonderful opportunities there. Constituents of mine have, for the last 6 years, put in great efforts to establish a tourist facility; a facility for children and students to explore the wonders of this great harbour. The unfortunate thing is that despite seeing every relevant mayor, and the Auckland Regional Council, only hurdles and obstructions have been put in the way of establishing appropriate wharves. Nothing has happened.

I can tell members that today I received a letter from Mayor Bob Harvey in which he says: “Thanks for your letter, Paul, regarding the lack of ferry services or ferry facilities for the Manukau Harbour. I have been trying for decades, but I have given up. The Auckland Regional Council do not cover themselves in glory when it comes to enabling development of the coastline to happen. Of course, there are lots of other reasons. But I think this is a task for a new council, for a new way to Auckland to operate as a whole. You will, of course, be aware that the regional council has the most to say about the coastline and about transport within it. So perhaps there is little I can do for you.”

There is no doubt that the bill before us is the very thing we need to get on with expeditiously so that this very important opportunity, which has not been discussed in the Chamber today, can go ahead and allow generations of New Zealanders to enjoy the wonders, the history, and the rich cultural and recreational opportunities of the Manukau Harbour. That will only happen through the mechanism of a bill such as this.

Hon RODNEY HIDE (Minister of Local Government) : I am sorry that Labour MP Carol Beaumont has not spoken on her very interesting amendment, because we know that Labour wanted to extend the Auckland super-city to include Hamilton, Taupō, and Tauranga. Carol Beaumont has put forward an amendment to clause 12. The amendment inserts new subclause (6), which states—and I ask members to think about this; Labour members especially, because Mr Phil Twyford has said he will support this amendment—“12(6) This subsection applies if, at any elections held at the same time for a member or members of the governing body or local board and a member or members of Parliament, a person is declared to be elected as a member of the governing body or local board and that person is also declared to be elected as a member of Parliament.”

That would mean that a member would have to resign as he or she could not be a councillor, a local board member, or an MP all at once.

Dr Rajen Prasad: Wouldn’t that be a good thing?

Hon RODNEY HIDE: Mr Prasad calls out that it is a good thing. I presume that Mr Prasad and Labour members will vote for this amendment.

Dr Rajen Prasad: I will, yes.

Hon RODNEY HIDE: That is very interesting. The problem with the amendment, of course—and I am sorry to break this to Mr Prasad and the Labour Party—is that we do not have elections for Parliament and for councils on the same day, do we. It never happens.

Hon Lianne Dalziel: And your point is?

Hon RODNEY HIDE: I say to Ms Dalziel that if Labour members did their work, they would see the point when they read the amendment. The Hon Lianne Dalziel still has not got the point, so I will read it again: “This subsection applies if, at any elections held at the same time for a member or members of the governing body or local board and a member or members of Parliament …”, but they are definitely, by the constitution of New Zealand, never held at the same time.

I just wish that Labour members would do the work on this bill. I wish they would actually care about the Auckland super-council and would understand—and I thought we would be hard-pressed to find a Kiwi who did not know—that we do not vote for members of Parliament and members of councils on the same day. Did Mr Henare know that? Of course he did. Did Mr John Carter know that?

Hon John Carter: Absolutely.

Hon RODNEY HIDE: Of course he did. Did Mr Hone Harawira know that? Of course he did.

Hone Harawira: No he didn’t!

Hon RODNEY HIDE: Oh, Hone Harawira did not know that! Well, funnily enough, that is not so surprising when I think about it.

But I would have thought the Hon Trevor Mallard would know. I would have thought that Darien Fenton would know that we do not vote for a member of Parliament and a member of a local council on the same day. Funnily enough, I do not know about Mr Phil Twyford. I thought: “I wonder whether he knows.” I thought, on balance, that he probably would not know. He is going to vote for it. Mr Prasad did not know about it.

Hon Trevor Mallard: Ever heard of a by-election?

Hon RODNEY HIDE: Oh! Trevor Mallard says that it is to apply only if there is a by-election.

Hon Trevor Mallard: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy): Is the member raising a debating point?

Hon Trevor Mallard: No, it is not a debating point at all. The member has misquoted me, and I seek leave to make a personal explanation.

The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy): The member is seeking leave to make a personal explanation. Normally that would occur at the end of a call, but the member is seeking leave to make a personal explanation.

Hon John Carter: On what subject?

Hon Trevor Mallard: On the matter that the member has just referred to.

Hon John Carter: Relating to?

Hon Trevor Mallard: By-elections.

The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy): Leave is sought. Is there any objection to that course of action? There is objection.

Hon RODNEY HIDE: Mr Mallard says that this amendment is to apply only if there is a by-election. So now the Labour members are implying that if there is a by-election—oh, I do not understand. And I do not think the Labour members know what they are up to. I want Mr Phil Twyford to stand in this Chamber, explain why he is voting for this amendment, and explain its legal effect.

Hon Trevor Mallard: Tell the truth Rodney. Stop being a liar!

The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy): Order!

Hon RODNEY HIDE: I want Mr Mallard to take a call and explain why I am not telling the truth. I would be happy for him to. I look forward to it. I would like Mr Prasad to explain—[Interruption]

David Garrett: Point of order—

The CHAIRPERSON (Eric Roy): No, I think I can capture the point. The member Trevor Mallard has crossed the boundary in relation to allegations of truthfulness, and I ask him to desist.

Hon RODNEY HIDE: It will be very interesting to hear the Labour members, and Ms Beaumont in particular, explain why Labour has an amendment that applies only when an MP is elected on the same day that he or she—that same person—is elected to be a councillor on the new Auckland Council. It beats this Government! Labour members do not need to make personal statements; they need to explain their Supplementary Order Paper.

CATHERINE DELAHUNTY (Green) : I must say that I enjoyed the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee a lot more than I am enjoying this debate. There was much less shouting and bad acting, and there was actually a lot more concentration on the issues at hand. I would like to return to one of the issues at hand, which is that I acknowledge the comments made by some of the earlier speakers about the people who are marginalised through the structural processes of this bill. It was good to hear from Nikki Kaye that youth and disability groups will receive some attention in the third bill, although I did not hear any acknowledgment of the call by Pasifika and Asian groups for advisory committees. I certainly did not hear any more acknowledgment or recognition of the issues of Māori seats and mana whenua, so I am going to return to that topic. I want to talk about it in terms of the history of local government and Māori representation.

Local government has an appalling history of addressing mana whenua issues in Tāmaki and, indeed, right across the motu. That is parallel with a fairly bad record on environmental issues. If members do not believe me, they should just ask the kaitiaki of Tīkapa Moana, the Hauraki Gulf; or ask Ngāti Whātua ki Ōrākei about Ōkahu Bay; or ask Ngāti Te Ata about the Manukau Harbour, which has been used as a toilet for a long time, ever since the council moved the toilet there from the Waitematā; or ask Ngāti Te Ata about the wāhi tapu on the Āwhitu Peninsula. Beyond Tāmaki, right across this country, public toilets and landfills, and marinas and subdivisions have regularly been built on wāhi tapu and kai moana beds, all legally consented to by local government. There are endless ghastly instances of sacred sites and food sources being trampled on by local councils.

In the last few years some councils have faced the mirror to some degree with regard to the marginalisation of tangata whenua as first-nation people, and, indeed, in terms of other groups that are not made up of older, wealthier Pākehā people and that have not managed to get on to local councils. Some of that leadership for change comes from Tāmaki, from Waitakere City Council and Manukau City Council. Manukau City Council, in particular, has been strong on te Tiriti dialogue and cultural recognition. That is not to say it has a totally healthy te Tiriti - based relationship with mana whenua, but at least it has sought advice from wise heads. We look to lose a lot if we lose that kind of spirit. In contrast with that, the Auckland City Council has not been a shining light of cultural respect towards tangata whenua. From the community board level, where in many instances it has failed to give donations and grants to Māori groups, right through to the mayoralty it is hard to recall a single act of real power-sharing instigated by Auckland City Council, despite the best efforts of advisory groups, including the leadership of Ngāti Whātua ki Ōrākei. What does this mean for the future?

Su’a William Sio has talked about the structural failings of this bill. He is correct that local council rhetoric, or indeed Crown rhetoric, about diversity is meaningless without a structural reflection in the law. We have a sorry history in local government in terms of te Tiriti abuse, but we had an opportunity to change that. The mana whenua and Māori seats issues were like a small light at the end of a dark tunnel of structural racism and privilege. But what the hell—what have we done? We are saying Pākehā can represent all those other issues; we do not need the Māori seats. Yet Pākehā have consistently failed, and have demonstrated an absolute inability, to respond to Māori views and values. We certainly cannot be said to represent Māori, so why do we not have the Māori seats?

It is, indeed, with great regret that I continue to raise this matter. I do feel that a really strong opportunity for change was lost here. As I said in an earlier speech to the Committee, the issue was about what the submitters wanted. It is with great sadness that I hear people talk about the need for a strong, forward-moving, regional, unified new authority, when the core opportunity for it to have strength, unity, and a regional perspective on many issues to do with resource management, with the environment, and with justice, which would have been heard through the Māori seats, is lost. Kia ora.

Dr JACKIE BLUE (National) : I am pleased to be speaking again in the debate on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. It has certainly been a long time coming. It has been at least 50 years since concerns and grumblings about the governance of Auckland started. It has not been working and there have been many attempts to fix it. Once the Royal Commission on Auckland Governance got going, consulted, and reported back, it was clear the Government had to move fast. Although the previous Government started this process, it is the current Government that will be finishing it, and that is what this bill is about. It is the second bill of three. Basically, the commission said that reform was urgent, and it stressed that doing nothing would be a high cost to Auckland. The region was suffering from bureaucracy, from stifling red tape, roads were blocked, and businesses and the economy were suffering. That is why we are here today.

I want to touch on the voting system. There has been debate about it already today, and certainly the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee had a number of submissions regarding whether we should have the single transferable vote (STV) system versus the first-past-the-post system. There were a lot of submissions for STV. It was felt it would be more democratic and perhaps would give greater representation of ethnic minorities—very valid points. It is good in theory but I think, unfortunately, it has been very poor in practice.

Essentially, with this bill, which will be in place for the local body elections in September 2010, all of Auckland will be facing a totally new system. It will be totally foreign. Aucklanders will be voting for the Auckland Council, for one super-council if members like to call it that, and 20 to 30 boards. It will be a whole new system. The history of STV in the Auckland area is that it is used for the district health board elections, which have occurred in 2004 and 2007. Quite frankly, I will not say it is a disaster but the number of invalid votes is absolutely phenomenal. They have got worse not better, and the voter turnout is getting poorer, as well. Voters are turning off. Why are they turning off? I guess that is the question. Is it due to the voting system? Is it due to apathy? Who knows? Certainly, I think the voting system is critical. We have to get it right. I think that for the first election the voting system needs to be simple so that people can understand it. It should be first past the post, and after that Aucklanders can decide for themselves what voting system they want to follow. I think that, on balance, the committee felt that would be the best way to go forward.

I want to talk a little bit about remuneration. We had some submissions on the remuneration of the new local board members. Under the current system, community board members get quite a modest salary. It is very modest indeed for the work that they do; one could almost call it voluntary or altruistic-type work. The submitters said to us that that means that the individuals who currently step up either can afford to step up or have the time on their hands to step up, and that possibly people who would like to do so but cannot afford to stop their day job or whatever are precluded. The new local boards will be quite different, with new roles and responsibilities. A paragraph in the commentary on the bill suggests that the Remuneration Authority—we cannot tell it what to do—align the remuneration of the new local board members with the level of responsibility of their work. Hopefully, it will follow through and a whole different range of diverse people will step up. That would be a very good thing.

I want to talk a wee bit about the mayor. I think the election in 2010 in Auckland will be quite exciting. We already have a couple of candidates. Certainly, the new Auckland mayor, he or she—and, who knows, it might be a she—

Hon Steve Chadwick: It should be, shouldn’t it!

Dr JACKIE BLUE: I agree. It would be great to have a female Auckland mayor. The mayor, whoever it might be, will have the huge responsibility of bringing the region together, bringing all areas together. He or she will have to show vision and leadership. They will have 20 councillors to work with. Those councillors will come from all over Auckland. The select committee recommends that one should be from the Rodney District, one from the Franklin District, and so on.

Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South) : I want to ask National when Tau Henare will take the call. When will Tau Henare take the call on this particular issue? Tau Henare has had a lot to say publicly on this issue and about the Minister in the chair, Rodney Hide. Tau Henare’s colleague and the spokesperson for Ngāti Whātua, Ngārimu Blair, was reported today as saying that he supports the one person, one vote principle. He supports one person, one vote in here too. He wants to know why Tau Henare is being muzzled. Why can Tau Henare not vote according to his conscience and what he has said publicly in this Chamber? I think it is fair to say that Ngārimu Blair has a very appropriate name. He was named after Ngārimu VC, who has had the highest honour for bravery that a New Zealander can get. We are not asking Tau Henare to be nearly as brave as his relatives; we are asking him to do what he is asking other people to do, and work on the basis, as the Minister has said, of one person, one vote. Why will National not let Tau Henare vote according to his conscience? Why can he not do what Mike Minogue used to do on a regular basis? Georgina te Heuheu has done it, as have a number of other National members. It used to be their kaupapa. It used to be the way that the National members did it, and they were proud. They would say something outside, and they would follow it up inside.

I ask two questions, really. Why does National not have the courage of its convictions to take the whip off Tau Henare? There is not a word, not a whisper, and not a murmur from National about that. Even given that, why does Tau Henare—who has so much to say outside, including some pretty direct descriptions of the Minister in charge of the bill, Rodney Hide—not follow up in this Chamber what he has said outside? It is all very well being a lion in front of the TV cameras, but if he is a mouse in here, there is not much point. What is he doing? Apparently he is in a competition with Nikki Kaye for a list spot in Auckland. They know that they will have some problems there. Jackie Blue has gone already; she is not even part of that competition. But a fight is going on for the last list—

Dr Rajen Prasad: Allan Peachey!

Hon TREVOR MALLARD: No, I think Allan Peachey will be all right. He will win a seat. But a fight is going on for that last spot on the Auckland list. When John Key tells Tau Henare to jump, he is now asking how high he should jump.

I just got slightly confused because George Hawkins is over the other side of the Chamber. Every now and again I think he should be over the other side, but on this occasion he is physically on the other side of the Chamber causing a little bit of confusion.

When Rodney Hide is telling Tau Henare how to vote, it gets to the point of being ridiculous. What sort of member of Parliament do we have? People know I have had a disagreement or two with Mr Henare, but the thing about him is one knows where he stands. He tells us, he is direct, and he is very clear. He has told people all over Auckland that there would be Māori seats and a mana whenua seat or two, as well. I want to know when Tau Henare will get alongside Hone Harawira and do what is right.

Hon STEVE CHADWICK (Labour) : I also want to talk about the Auckland boundaries. I come from the Bay of Plenty, and we proudly set up a Bay of Plenty hub. We had a great meeting with Phil Goff and the mayors of the region, and we talked about the super-city because every region in the country is starting to ponder it. It was very clear from the democratic leaders of our region that we want to have a say. The good people of the Bay of Plenty want to have a say on what the correct and appropriate boundaries are if local government reform extends after the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. I told those mayors they could bet their bottom dollar the reforms would extend to the Bay of Plenty. Rodney Hide will not stop as the Minister of Local Government. After the Auckland super-city legislation, he will move out into the regions. I told them it was time we got together so we can design our own future.

When we look at the boundary issue in this bill, we see what a botch-up has been made. It has caused concern and anxiety. People are marching on the streets because they know what is right for them, and that the lines drawn on the map are simply wrong. Those lines are stupid, and it took leaders in the community like Mike Lee from the Auckland Regional Council to say how ridiculous it is to manage the natural assets of the region by separating off an area from the Auckland region and saying we could manage it as one. It was great to see people like Mike Lee stand up and fight the good fight about boundary changes. We can be sure that members around the country from different regions are telling the Government that Rodney Hide, who is a coalition partner and the Minister of Local Government outside of Cabinet, is wielding such power of influence over the National Government—the tail is wagging the dog—that he will extend his fingers down into the rest of New Zealand and will tell them what to do. He will go out there and say that the Government is listening and that the door is always open, and John Key will bounce around behind him and say that his door is also always open and the Government is listening to the good people. But the Government has drawn the lines on the map.

Government members think they know best how local bodies want to manage their own communities of interest and the regional council configuration of local authorities. They have got it wrong in Auckland, and at the last minute they changed what they originally proposed, because the good people of Auckland got up and said that the Government had got it wrong. It took an eleventh-hour visit up to Rodney for a bit of deep and meaningful conversation for the Government to say it would change the boundaries and Rodney could come in. Poor old Dr Paul Hutchison really misses out. The good people of Rodney win, but poor old Dr Paul, who has been a fantastic member for the National Party, advocating for his constituency, has been trampled. The mana of the Māori Party has been trampled because the Minister, who listened and knows best, said there would be no Māori seats on the new Auckland super-council. He said there would be no Māori seats and no representation, as he knows best. He said he will work out a mana whenua relationship; that will please everybody, and then they will go away. Well, the good iwi of Auckland will not go away and the iwi of New Zealand will not go away on this issue. The iwi of New Zealand will remind the Government, after the 2010 local body elections, that they were ignored and trampled over.

Labour set up the Bay of Plenty Regional Council (Maori Constituency Empowering) Act that allowed three seats on the regional council. That was Mita Ririnui’s bill in 2001, and the good old Nats, the way they used to, let Georgina te Heuheu cross the floor because she felt strongly. But that is not the case any more; they are all muzzled. They all get up in the Chamber and rave, and say they will go out into the community at community rallies and hīkoi, but nothing has changed. The people were not listened to. They were trampled over by the Minister in the chair, Rodney Hide, who dances on the head of a pin about consultation and listening and ignores the good people of Auckland. I think the rest of New Zealand needs to look very closely at this. In the next election they need to watch the power that the minority ACT Party wields over National.

Hon MITA RIRINUI (Labour) : I want to touch on some of the points that were raised this morning. I know we have moved from the issues around Māori representation and on to ethnic representation and boundary issues, but my colleague the Hon Trevor Mallard raised some relevant issues. It is important that we go back and revisit those issues, because I get the impression that the Government is trying to move this thing along so that the real issues, the ones that people think about on a daily basis, are swept over so we can move on to the mechanical or technical aspects of this legislation. The real debate gets swallowed up and lost.

The Hon Trevor Mallard mentioned the contribution of the Hon Tau Henare, a former Minister of Māori Affairs. I want to revisit some of the comments he made. This is not an attack or challenge to Tau Henare, but to all the Māori members of the National Party. My colleague Steve Chadwick mentioned the absolute support that I received in 2001 from the Hon Georgina te Heuheu on the Bay of Plenty Regional Council (Maori Constituency Empowering) Bill, and I know her views on Māori representation in the proposed Auckland super-city remain the same as they were in 2001. She has been very public, although guarded, in expressing her views. When she has spoken in the Chamber, those views, in a subtle way, have challenged the Minister sitting in the chair. She has come out in the open and admitted upfront that she is in support of Māori representation. I am wondering why the Hon Georgina te Heuheu does not come down to the Chamber. I know we are not allowed to comment on why people are not here, but it would be very helpful if she could be consistent in making her views clear to the members of the House.

There are Māori members of the National Party who have not been upfront about their views on Māori representation in the proposed Auckland super-city. I think it is basically because they have been muzzled. Although I acknowledge that some of them are new members, and it will take some time for them to settle into some of the to-ing and fro-ing of political life, there is a time when people have to stand up and be counted. They have to get up and speak their minds. It would also be very helpful if the only remaining member of the Māori Party in the Chamber, Hone Harawira, got to his feet and shared some of his whakaaro with us, because I know they are quite relevant.

We spoke today about boundaries. It is very easy for the Minister to draw boundaries around the proposal for the Auckland super-city, but there are boundaries that overlie the boundaries that are proposed in the legislation. Those are the boundaries of tangata whenua—of Ngāpuhi, Ngāti Whātua, Tainui, and many other iwi who hold mana whenua over that particular area. Before we go any further in speaking about the carve-up of that great city, some consideration has to be given to those ancestral tribal boundaries. I know there has not been sufficient debate on that in the Chamber today.

I am told that there were 287 submissions made to the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, and I am told that the Hon Tau Henare was very thorough in terms of his consultations around the area. He even went to Waiheke Island to listen to submissions. What he did not say in the Chamber is that those submissions from Māori were made on the basis of their traditional boundaries. In other words, they and they alone have mana whenua over the Tāmaki-makau-rau district. Anyone proposing anything that would affect their mana whenua had an obligation to listen very carefully to what they had to say. For the past 24 hours in this Chamber, the Government has said that it listened. Its members have said that so many times that I think they have convinced themselves that they did listen. In fact, people are ringing in, sending emails, and texting saying “Why didn’t the Government listen to Māori?”. I have to text them back and say: “Well, actually the Government is saying …”. Now, if that is not the case, then they have a case to present to the Government. But I do not think the Government will listen to that, either. In Māoridom we have an old saying: “Mā te huruhuru ka rere te manu. Mā te hinengaro, ka mōhio he aha te māramatanga.”

[With feathers a bird will fly. With a mind, one will know what enlightenment is.]

You see, everything around the Auckland proposal for Māori brings up the issue of assets capture. In other words, there is a fear that ratepayer assets will be transferred to some sort of conglomerate that in the future will ring-fence and dispose of them. That is a real fear for Māori in the Auckland area. What will that mean for Māori assets? I think it will mean a lot, as it did in the Bay of Plenty when the Bay of Plenty bill was introduced. There is also the issue around the Government listening but not hearing, as has happened in this case.

PHIL TWYFORD (Labour) : I will make some comments on the issue of boundaries, but first I observe how good it is to see a spark of life on the Government benches. We on this side of the Chamber were getting quite downhearted, noting that there have been only two speeches by National members since 10.30 this morning. We have sent George Hawkins over there to try to even up the numbers. One would think the debate on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill was a game of soccer in the park on a Saturday morning the way it is going.

One of the most extraordinary and bizarre episodes of this Government’s mishandling of the Auckland governance reforms is its attempt to lop off the northern and southern ends of Auckland. It proposed to consign 25 percent of the land area to outside the super-city. The proposal had heads shaking all over the city of Auckland. In an exercise that was really designed to integrate and build a more cohesive Auckland, here was the Government lopping off 25 percent of the land area, including some of our most important, beloved, and spectacular natural assets. If we look at Rodney District we see that the Government proposed to put the very precious northern beaches—those north of Waiwera—and a number of our regional parks outside the Auckland boundaries.

Darien Fenton: Crazy!

PHIL TWYFORD: It is absolutely crazy, as my colleague Darien Fenton just commented. It is very hard to know how the Associate Minister of Local Government, John Carter, ever came to the conclusion that it was a good idea. I was on the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee and I heard the submissions that people in Rodney gave when the committee sat in Rodney. There was diversity of opinion, but for the Associate Minister to just lick his finger and stick it in the wind as a way of making an important decision like this, and to blindly ignore the advice of the royal commission on where the boundaries should go, seems utterly bizarre. It was really only the campaigning by the Auckland Regional Council chairman, Mike Lee, and his pointing out the situation to Aucklanders and alerting them to the fact that some of our most precious parks and northern beaches were going to be given away that aroused public opinion.

We saw an admirable example of listening, but that listening process exposed some seriously deficient decision-making. We saw at the eleventh hour, 24 hours before the bill came back to the House, a panicked move by the Government to bring north Rodney back into the fold. The citizens of Warkworth, Matakana, Omaha, Pakiri, and Leigh breathed a big sigh of relief. But that leaves the problem of Franklin, the fact that the current boundary goes through Pukekohe and Waiuku, and the fact that Hunua’s Mangatawhiri Dam and Mangatangi Dam, which hold 54 percent of Auckland’s bulk water supply, and three regional parks outside Auckland’s boundaries were just given away. If Mr John Carter listened to the people of Auckland he would realise that that is the last thing they want to see happening in the new super-city.

One has to wonder what the difference is. There is a direct analogy in looking at the cases of Rodney and Franklin. The arguments the royal commission made about providing sufficient rural land to act as a buffer against the pressures of urban development have just been ignored. The member for Rodney attended a meeting with 200 angry people in Warkworth last Saturday. That was enough, it seems, to turn the Government round on this important decision.

Hon David Cunliffe: It wasn’t enough on trees or the hīkoi.

PHIL TWYFORD: That is true, and it was not enough that several hundred people attended meetings over the last few months in Franklin. That has not enabled the MP for Hunua, Paul Hutchison, to get his way—poor old Paul Hutchison.

I will make some comments that I did not get to during my last speech. We were talking about single transferable vote earlier in the afternoon and the fact that the Government has decided that first past the post is to be the voting system for the first elections, in spite of the fact that single transferable vote is fairer and more representative.

BRENDON BURNS (Labour—Christchurch Central) : I am very pleased to take a call on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. As a Christchurch MP I can say that if we ever approach local government restructuring in Canterbury, I only hope that we do it a hell of a lot better than what has been done here with this rushed, inconsistent, and often flawed process.

In my view, local government is about two things. First, it is about representation. The bill should be about the best possible representation for the people of Auckland. Second, local government is about the relationship between those people who have been elected to run the super-city and those who have elected them. It should not be about any of us, in effect, as central government politicians. It most certainly should not be about any agendas that central government politicians might have.

One of the things that struck me about the bill from the outset is the potential it presents, in bringing together the Auckland councils, for privatisation of Auckland assets. That remains a very real and key concern. We are bringing together in the Auckland super-city some $28 billion worth of assets—most notably, assets such as Ports of Auckland and Watercare Services. They are very much two glittering prizes for privatisation, and certainly many in the investment community would look at them as such. There is nothing in the bill to protect those assets. I acknowledge the very good work that my colleague Phil Twyford has done to promote that issue, through a website and other means.

But I believe that in other policy settings the Government is going the other way, towards the potential for privatisation. I note most particularly that in March the Government announced a review of foreign ownership, to make it easier for foreigners to invest in this country. Even more recently, it announced that any Australian investment body wanting to buy assets in New Zealand can now do so up to a limit of $500 million—that is, half a billion dollars in assets. Of course, the net effect, even though the investors are our good friends from Australia, is the same. It still has the potential to drive our current account deficit to become even wider, to drive our dollar further upwards, along with our interest rates, and, in effect, to make us beggars in our own land.

Water is the basis of the new economy, and Watercare Services will be providing water to over a million New Zealanders in Auckland. If we have in Mr Hide—and this is not anything contentious—a very strong belief in the privatisation ethic, and if we have embodied and articulated in him a belief that core services do not even stretch to the provision of such essential services, in my view, as libraries, then the potential for privatisation is very strong.

Another comment I will make is around the formation of the new community boards or councils. I support them as a very good concept, but the key for any community board or council is the resourcing and funding it receives. In Christchurch we have about half a dozen of these bodies. They are served by very well-motivated people who work very hard on behalf of their particular sections of the Christchurch community. But I have to say that their powers are very limited. They can, for instance, decide where a bus stop can be sited, but they have no power over transport issues, like the running of bus services. They can fund the resowing of a sports field, but they do not have the capacity to purchase or create a sports field. I think the key to the successful future of the boards in Auckland comes back to the same thing. It comes back to the resources and funding they have, and the protections that are in place to ensure that publicly owned resources remain in public hands. I am not convinced that that is provided for in this bill.

Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour—New Lynn) : As an Auckland member I have been very interested in this debate about the difference between Rodney and Franklin. Ostensibly, both are in the same sorts of circumstances. Rodney was all-in, then it was half out, and now it is back in. Franklin was in, then half out. Government members say that the formation of local boards is about the watershed, not the community of interest, but the main principles of the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill are around community of interest. That is the way the Government has argued the formation of local boards. I will get to that issue.

Apart from the boundary issue looking like a complete muddle, a complete shambles, the mystery for me was unanswered until the penny dropped. A Minister responsible for the bill, John Carter, is also the chairman of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, and is also the member of Parliament for the district that got its way. A Minister responsible for the bill is the chairman of that committee. That is a complete conflict of interest, of which I know no precedent in my time in Parliament. That Minister is also the local member for one of the highly disputed territories. I bet that the honest, hard-working member Paul Hutchison wishes he were the Minister. He would have fixed it for his people. Why was he left out in the cold?

Have we ever heard anything as ridiculous as defining an electoral boundary on a watershed that runs contrary to a community of interest? The bill is devoid of logic and principle at that level. It is devoid of logic and principle and shows all the signs of a Government that is unravelling—as if we needed another example after the emissions trading scheme. The Government has a deal with the Māori Party one day and a deal with Labour the next. If the Māori Party deal only goes as far as the select committee, the Government thinks it had better get back into bed with Labour if we will still have it. What a shambles! Here is a Government that is embracing “Muldoonism” with a smile that is looking raggeder and raggeder by the day. But I will move on to the next issue.

Hone Harawira: Raggeder?

Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE: “Raggeder” seems to roll off the tongue, like “Hon-ourable Hon-e”. It evokes what it true of the Government: that it is fraying around the edges on important issues like Auckland. But that is a shame, because the Auckland issues are hugely important to New Zealand. We accept the argument—in fact, we proposed it—that if Auckland succeeds, New Zealand has a better chance of succeeding. Auckland needed to pull together better, we needed clearer definition of regional services, and we needed stronger regional organisation. That is why we set up the royal commission. Not everything in the royal commission report was what we wanted, but it is one thing to disagree with the royal commission’s report and another to replace the 800-page document with a 20-page political manifesto that was absolutely designed to gerrymander the politics of Auckland. That is why we called National’s response “Making Auckland Bluer”. That was what it was about.

That process has continued right through the legislation. It is very pertinent in the multi-member wards and it is very pertinent to the structure of the local boards. I suspect that before the Government took a position on how many boards there should be it crunched a lot of numbers. I suspect that the Government studied all the permutations of where the boundaries could be drawn and worked out, on the balance of probabilities, the number of wards there would have to be for the best chance of there being a right-leaning council. You can bet your bottom dollar that that is what this issue is about, because there is no other demonstrable logic to it.

Hon Steve Chadwick: The Minister smiles.

Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE: The Minister in the chair, John Carter, smiles because he knows he has done a hatchet job on the councils of Auckland. He knows it is a hatchet job. He is smirking in the chair because he knows there is not a damn thing Auckland can do about it now.

Hon Steve Chadwick: Done to a dog’s—

Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE: It is done like a dog’s dinner. Auckland was done when the first Auckland bill was rammed through under urgency, and we are back here again in urgency to ram through this bill in the dead of the afternoon. That is what it is doing: ramming it through in the dead of the afternoon.

All National can muster is the member for Tauranga. He is here to try to defend Government interests. Do we know why that member is here? He does not want to see John Carter carving up his city council. He is saying that the fight starts at the Bombay Hills and that John Carter cannot come over them.

SU’A WILLIAM SIO (Labour—Māngere) : Thank you for the opportunity to speak. In terms of the boundaries, one has to ask why the Government is so determined to hand over Auckland’s dams to the Waikato Regional Council. We heard many contentious issues as we listened to the people of Auckland take the time to submit on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. One of those issues was the northern and southern boundaries. It is quite good that the Government decided to change its mind at the eleventh hour on the northern boundary. I suppose it did so because its secret agenda had been revealed for all to see. The Government was linking itself closely to Mr Hide’s business people who want to develop that part of northern Rodney without having to go through the normal council consent process.

But we have to come back to the southern boundary and to recognise that the bill proposes to partition the Franklin District, with the north joining the Auckland Council and the southern part joining the Waikato District Council. Some members of this House would have received a recent email from Mr Colin Bull, who feels strongly about this issue. So strong is his belief that he believes that the National Government, to which he is affiliated—I am not sure whether he is a supporter or a member of the National Party, but nevertheless he is quite close to it—is making the wrong decision. Funnily enough, when the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee was in Papakura and then in Franklin, listening to submitters, I said to the chairman, the Hon John Carter, that National will get bitten by this bill. I could hear the anger of the submitters, and I said that I thought they were mainly National supporters. He turned to me and said: “What do you mean, saying they are our supporters? They are our members!”. People there were fund-raisers for the National Party, and they are the people the Government will have a problem with.

One of the media headlines yesterday was: “Nat MP critical of super-city boundary back-down”. The member for Hunua, Dr Hutchison, said: “… the boundary goes through the streets of Waiuku,”. The southern boundary is critical because not only will critical water supplies—54 percent of Auckland’s total water supply—be cut off but also prime regional parks land, including three major regional parks, all paid for by Auckland ratepayers and all managed by the Auckland Regional Council, will be given away. The boundary divides the towns of Waiuku and Pukekohe, separating the residents of northern Franklin from essential services and infrastructure. Earlier today, the chair of the Auckland Regional Council stated in a press release: “This is absurd and definitely not good local government.” The call we make to the Government on behalf of the people of Auckland is that it is not too late to change the southern boundary, to save face, and to get things right. The Government should listen to the people of Auckland.

The other area that is contentious, in so far as the people of Auckland are concerned, is the local boards. The Royal Commission on Auckland Governance came out, after 18 months of extensive research and consultation, and said that, yes, there would be a unitary authority, and underneath that unitary authority there would be local boards of sufficient size to meet and manage the existing needs of the ratepayers of Auckland, and also of sufficient size to recognise that the transition from the existing eight local territorial authorities to a single unitary authority would take time. It would need more time than the Government gave the people of Auckland when it rammed the first Auckland bill through under urgency. During the select committee process people felt they were not given enough time. The process was hasty and rushed, and, of course, the experience of many Aucklanders is that when Governments do that, they get things wrong.

SIMON BRIDGES (National—Tauranga) : It is very good to take a call in this debate. I say to the members of the Opposition that if they pipe down a little they will be able to hear me, and I know they want to hear what I have to say. I wanted to take a call this morning, but like the National Party and like the Government I have been too busy listening. National members love to listen. I have been listening carefully to what members have been saying.

I was interested to hear what Carol Beaumont had to say right at the end of last night, and I was interested to hear Kelvin Davis earlier this morning. Of course, Carol is the fresh, dynamic face of Labour. She is a unionist, I think. She is clearly a more dynamic, fresh face than Kelvin Davis is, because Kelvin is only a principal. Unionism is a much better career path to get ahead in the Labour Party. What they both said was interesting, and it had a superficial appeal. They were saying that it does not matter that people say they are listening, listening, listening; if they are not listening and it is just a mantra, it does not mean anything. I agree with that. What they are saying is perfectly right. Too often, I think, in politics we have mantras and we say things, but if they do not have meaning behind them, they are not worth the paper they are written on or the air in which they are expelled. So that is no good. It is a bit like Phil Twyford and the secret privatisation agenda campaign he has been running. What is it called?

Phil Twyford: Not Yours to Sell.

SIMON BRIDGES: It does not matter how many times the member says “Not yours to sell”—and he could get some second-rate guitarist to do him a song—[Interruption] That got them going. It does not matter how many times he says that; if there is no substance there, if there is no secret privatisation agenda, then it does not mean anything.

The difficulty for Carol and for Kelvin, and for my earnest friend Phil Twyford, is that, actually, National members were listening. New Zealand really liked the fact that we acted on what we heard. Let me give members a couple of examples. Labour members do not like this, because they want to say the Government was not listening and nothing happened. The first example concerns the local boards. We changed the shape and the form of those local boards and we beefed up their powers substantially, because of what we heard at the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee. We made changes based on what we heard from Nikki Kaye’s “Waihetians” from Waiheke. We heard from people in Devonport, whom Phil Twyford got to know a little during the election campaign. We also listened to the people in Māngere and the people in Waitakere. We heard what they said. We heard that they wanted a more inclusive, lower-to-the-ground local board that listens to what they say, and we acted on that.

Dr Rajen Prasad: And you gave them one with no power.

SIMON BRIDGES: We do not need a commissioner for social inclusion, actually, I say to Rajen Prasad. We gave the local boards the powers they need. We listened, and we acted, and we changed things. What about the councillors? There will be 20 from local wards. There were going to be some at-large councillors. I will be honest: I went into the select committee process thinking that at-large councillors was a good idea. I thought it would allow elected people to stand back and take the whole region’s interests into account. I, superficially, quite liked that idea. But we heard from the people of Auckland. We heard an overwhelming number of submissions from people from diverse communities, and they did not like the idea of at-large councillors.

Phil Twyford: Were you on the select committee, Simon? I never heard you say anything.

SIMON BRIDGES: The member never heard me say anything because I was too busy listening. I remember one lady, from the North Shore, I think, who said that as a member of Parliament I am elected to a constituency and I have to listen.

SUE KEDGLEY (Green) : I am glad to see that John Carter is the Minister in the chair, and I am wondering whether he could answer a question. I must say I was delighted that the Minister of Local Government, Rodney Hide, actually rose to answer one question I asked, but I had one other question, which the Minister has not yet answered, and it concerns the clause dealing with the role of the Mayor of Auckland. Subclause (3) of clause 9, “Mayor of Auckland”, states that the mayor and the mayor alone has the power “to establish processes and mechanisms for the Auckland Council to engage with the people of Auckland, whether generally or particularly”. Does this power override the Local Government Act? Can this particular clause override the consultation procedures set out in the Local Government Act? I would be very appreciative if the Associate Minister of Local Government, John Carter, was able to answer that question

I am worried about what might happen in a year or so. If, for example, John Banks achieves his ambition and becomes the Mayor of Auckland, and then achieves his further ambition to sell off some of the Auckland Council’s $28 billion of assets, Aucklanders might wake up and ask why they had not been consulted. They might ask why no one had gone through a consultation process on such a major issue—or even on a minor issue—and they might be puzzled as to how it had happened. Then they would realise it was because of a provision in this bill. If John Carter is not able to answer this question, then maybe another member of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, like Phil Twyford, can. Maybe George can answer it. Was a legal opinion given on it? I think it is a very serious issue. Did someone on the committee ask why the mayor has such extensive powers and is able to choose the mechanism by which people are consulted? I wonder whether the select committee was given a legal opinion as to whether this provision overrides the Local Government Act. It is a serious concern, and I do not want Aucklanders to wake up in a couple of years’ time and ask how it happened. I do not want them to find that it happened because Parliament was asleep or had not recognised the implications of this particular clause. So I would really appreciate it if Mr Carter could answer that question about the mayoral powers of consultation.

I know that Mr Carter has become irritated with my questioning some of the functions that he believes the local boards will have, but let me take this opportunity to congratulate John Carter on providing excellent and impartial chairing of the submission process. The only thing I would say is that when I was there I felt he raised the expectations of submitters that a whole lot of new powers would be given to the local boards, and I think they will be deeply disappointed when they discover that the powers are very limited—especially by the veto power of the Auckland Council.

The other issue I want to raise is the cost of this huge transition. Rodney Hide said in a speech that local government representatives were coming to see him to complain about the tens of millions of dollars of costs being imposed on local government by the National Government, the Government of the day. Yet this bill will impose a huge amount of cost on Auckland ratepayers. The Royal Commission on Auckland Governance estimated that the cost of the transformation from the eight existing councils to the super-city would be $120 million to $140 million. In answer to questions raised in the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee the Government members could only say they thought it would be about the same amount—$120 million to $140 million. As for the benefits, they hoped the super-city would bring annual savings of between 2.5 and 3.5 percent. So the first question is where the $120 million to $140 million will come from, especially given that Vote Local Government approved only $10 million for the implementation of the recommendations. Where will the rest of the $120 million to $140 million come from? Why have we not been given proper costings, not just some vague estimate by the royal commission, of how much it will all cost? We now know that Auckland ratepayers will have to foot the whole bill. Also, what are the estimated savings?

Hon STEVE CHADWICK (Labour) : I want to pick up on the issue of costs, which was raised by the previous speaker, Sue Kedgley. A very interesting little group in Auckland—the Auckland Regional Amenities Funding Board—has raised a very real issue of concern about what will happen to the status of the Auckland Regional Amenities Funding Act. The Act was passed last year by the Labour Government. That issue is also of concern to Labour members. The board had a meeting with the Minister of Local Government, Rodney Hide, and I heard back—as I am the Opposition spokesperson on arts, culture and heritage—that he was incredibly dismissive and rather arrogant. He listened but, again, went away. We do not know what will happen. The Auckland Regional Amenities Funding Board has no confidence, and it is feeling huge anxiety.

The board has an enormous responsibility to use rates from the region to fund the Auckland Festival Trust, the Auckland Philharmonia Orchestra, the Auckland Rescue Helicopter Trust, the Auckland Theatre Company, Auckland Zoo, Coastguard Northern Region, the New Zealand National Maritime Museum, NBR New Zealand Opera, the Stardome Observatory and Planetarium, Surf Life Saving Northern Region, and WaterSafe Auckland. Those are huge amenities and they are managed by the funding board. The board members met with the Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage, Christopher Finlayson, and he did give them a better hearing but he could not give them any reassurance whatsoever. We are debating the second Auckland bill under urgency, and there is absolutely no transition planning about what on earth will happen to the funding board. I think that is shameful.

Auckland has many good community organisations and facilities that deserve certainty and security of ongoing funding in this transitional phase. The ramming of this Auckland super-city bill through the House under urgency in order to be ready for the 2010 election causes uncertainty and anxiety for many, many organisations in Auckland. There has been nothing from the Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage about the way that the funding board will be supported, and certainly there has been nothing from Rodney Hide about it. The Local Government Act, which was Labour’s reform of local government, talks about cultural, social, and economic well-being. Well, a lot of the organisations I have mentioned come under that cultural umbrella. We all want the super-city legislation to produce a vibrant city, but the arts community in Auckland has no security of ongoing funding, at all. That is appalling. At the end of this urgency period this bill will be passed, the Government having said with high-handed arrogance: “We listen. We know what’s best for Auckland. We’ll sort it out—don’t worry.” It came out with platitudes like “Don’t worry, your future is safe in our hands.” It is certainly an issue that the funding trust has no security of ongoing funding. It has funding until 2010, but what happens beyond the next local body election?

I think the arts community of Auckland, which is vibrant and is the heart of New Zealand’s economic driver as its major city, deserves better in terms of long-term security of funding for the iconic Auckland Philharmonia Orchestra, the theatre company, opera, and all those other wonderful organisations, such as the Auckland Festival Trust. It deserves better. It is a funding agency, but it is caught in the transition from the protection it was given last year by the Auckland Regional Amenities Funding Act to the new super-city. Those sorts of issues are absolutely major, and they give the good people of Auckland no confidence that, with the passing of this second Auckland bill, the Government will dot the i’s and cross the t’s during the transition period in these uncertain times.

I wanted to bring up the Auckland Regional Amenities Funding Board. It plays a wonderful part in the vibrancy of Auckland in connecting communities through the arts, festivals, and events. It deserves certainty.

Hon JOHN CARTER (Associate Minister of Local Government) : Two or three points have been made that I think are worth responding to, but I will start by saying that one of the things we have been waiting to hear about from Opposition members is the actual principle about the things they consider are important. Opposition speakers have gone into a whole lot of minor detail. I am very disappointed in the Opposition’s debate, because the bill is significant. Passing the bill is one of the biggest things that will happen in the House during this term of Parliament. We are debating a measure that will affect a third of our country, the powerhouse of our country, and it matters. We are setting up a regional structure that will look after things in Auckland. With rare exception, I have not heard Opposition members saying that the legislation is important for New Zealand and that they support it. One or two of them have referred to it, to be fair, but they have not bothered to debate why it needs to happen.

In fact, most members opposite agree with the bill. But they should be saying so, because it is important legislation. If members agree with it, then they should be standing up and saying that it will be good for Auckland and good for New Zealand. Unfortunately, they are not telling the public about the wonderful opportunity that is being set up, which the previous Labour Government began and which the National Government has picked up and made happen. We will put in place a structure that will ensure that the future of Auckland is secure and that those things that matter on a regional basis will be dealt with. That is really important for us to say and to understand.

There has been some comment about the issue of local boards, and I think it is important for us to spend a little bit of time debating it. I know that some members—Sue Kedgley is one of them—are still concerned that we have not got it right. She and I will agree to disagree on that. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating. One of the things the royal commission report talks about is local councils, and I suspect that much of it was influenced by one of its members, David Shand. He was a Labour candidate some time ago and a real leftie. He has disappointed me. The Shand report was a failure, and I suspect that his input into the royal commission report was not much better.

I draw the Committee’s attention to the fact that the chairman of the New Zealand Community Boards, Mike Cohen, whom most members opposite will know, as do most of our members, has said that he is very pleased with the Government’s decisions in respect of the number of local boards we are putting up and the powers they are being given. I also draw the Committee’s attention to the commentary on the bill. It is important for members opposite to remember what Labour’s minority report says about local powers. Labour actually agrees with what the Government has done about local powers. Labour does not agree with the number of local boards, and I accept that. It says there should be 14 to 20 boards, and we say there should be 20 to 30. We are not that far away; the Opposition has shifted a lot. With regard to local powers, the Labour Opposition agrees with what the Government has said.

If we look at what the Green Party members have said—although I accept that they, and especially Sue Kedgley, have some concerns—we see that in the main they are not saying that what we are endeavouring to do in respect of local powers is wrong. They are just concerned as to whether we have got it right. As I have said, we will find out as we move forward. I say to listeners and to the Committee that the issue of local boards is absolutely important, and the majority of the Committee agrees with the powers that the Government is giving to the local boards. That is important.

There has been some debate about the issue of community groups, and I remind members that part of the responsibility for the transition will be determined by what is in the third bill on Auckland governance. I make the point that this is an ongoing process. We started with one bill, we are nearly finished now with the second bill, and there will be a third bill. A lot of detail will come through in the third bill that members will take a great deal of interest in, as they should. That detail will be part of what makes the whole thing happen. The third bill will address a lot of the concerns that members have. We will decide in the third bill whether we need to instruct the unitary authority or make a recommendation to the unitary authority as to how it should deal with the community groups and the funding issues that the member Steve Chadwick raised.

Hon Steve Chadwick: It’s very important.

Hon JOHN CARTER: It is absolutely important, and we concede that. We know that the issue of funding has to be dealt with, and the sorts of issues that the member raised in respect of the organisations and their funding will be dealt with in the third bill. It is a work in progress, and those issues will be dealt with. Believe you me, those issues will be addressed, and when we come to debate them the member will see the Government’s intention and see how the issues will be dealt with. We have not forgotten them; we certainly understand how important they are.

I remind members that part of this work was always going to have to proceed in steps. We had to make a decision as to whether we would set up the super-city, and we did so in the first bill. We had to make some decisions as to how many local boards and wards there would be, and then we had to pass that over to the Local Government Commission. That is what we have done. The commission will now go through its process, and at the end of it the commission will come out with a decision on the number of councillors, the number and shape of the wards, and the number and shape of the local boards. Then we will pass the third bill, which will make sure that the structure is right and that the work that local communities want done can happen. Just as important is that the Auckland Transition Agency will be doing its work.

For some reason the Opposition seems to be saying that this should have happened yesterday, and because it did not we have got it wrong. We never said we would get it right in the first instance. It has been a long process. One thing we can give this Government credit for is that the process has been a heck of a lot shorter than it would have been if that lot opposite had been in power, because they would never have got round to doing it. That is very important for members to understand.

With regard to the issue of mayoral powers, which Sue Kedgley raised, although we have recommended that we want the mayor and the council to consult, that does not override the Local Government Act. Members should bear in mind that some changes may be coming forward as Rodney Hide, I, and others work on those sorts of issues. Nevertheless, that does not override the need for consultation.

I will finish on one other point that I think is very important. I pick up the comments that Hone Harawira made last night. I thought his address was very good, and I compliment him on it. His comments were around the issue of Māori seats. The Opposition has raised the issue a lot, and Hone Harawira picked up on it and was just as cynical as I am about the Opposition’s position on the Māori seats. We had a contribution from my colleague from up north, Shane Jones—and it is funny that all three of us are part of the debate on Māori seats. He made the comment that he did not think there should be mana whenua seats. He made that comment here in the Chamber, and he still believes it. The fact is that he said that to us and a number of people in the Chamber. At least he was honest enough to stand up and say it. What really concerns Hone Harawira, me, and, I think, Shane Jones is that it took the Labour Opposition a long time to decide whether it would do anything about the Māori seats, then it cynically decided that it needed to get on the bandwagon.

That is the very point that Hone Harawira made last night. He thinks the decision of the Labour Opposition to support having Māori seats was cynical. At least he knew where he stood with Rodney Hide, and he knows where he stands with the National Government, but the Labour Opposition played around with the idea until it thought that maybe there was a bit of value in it. That is unfortunate, and it is what worries me about this debate. We should be looking at the issue constructively, because it is hugely important. It really does worry me that all we are hearing from the Opposition is commentary on minor things that have no major impact at all, instead of concentrating on the things that matter—on the fact that we are putting in place a structure that will affect one-third of this country. We will get the regional stuff right and we will get the local boards right. We know it is work in progress, and we know there is a lot of work ahead of us yet. There will be another select committee process, the Local Government Commission will work on the legislation, and the Government will get it right as we move forward.

PHIL TWYFORD (Labour) : I will talk about the issue of the local boards, which is a very important issue. I think it is important to break up the Northlanders who are participating in this debate, because, quite frankly, we need more Aucklanders and fewer Northlanders participating. The issue of the local boards is one that has—

Simon Bridges: Finish your mouthful! What is this?

PHIL TWYFORD: Sorry, I have a lozenge because I have a sore throat. The question of the local boards is one of the issues that have been intensively debated over the last few months. I will outline the process that we have gone through and some of the thinking that has gone into the whole question of the local boards.

The issue of the powers of the local boards was one of the most important that we dealt with, and people will know that Labour members criticised heavily the Government’s proposal for toothless “talk shops”, which were announced in April. We took the view, in line with the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Auckland Governance, that fewer, stronger, and larger boards were preferable to having myriad small, relatively powerless local boards. We said publicly back in April and May that we favoured a number between the six local boards that the royal commission had recommended and a dozen. We shared the royal commission’s view that if the boards were too small, they would not have the capability to do the important local government place-shaping work, which everyone agrees is essential in this whole area, and we agreed with the royal commission’s view that any kind of cost-benefit analysis could not justify the destruction of six functioning units of local government and their replacement with 20 to 30 small ones, and that such a change would be disruptive and expensive.

Much of the debate over the weeks that followed focused on the powers of the local boards. I am glad to acknowledge that the Government saw sense and listened to people around Auckland who were appalled at the prospect that all the power would basically be centralised in the super-city council, and there would be none at the second-tier level. The Government saw sense, and the Associate Minister of Local Government, who is in the chair, deserves some credit for that. I will come back to the question of whether the powers provided for the local boards in the bill are satisfactory and sufficient, but there is no doubt that once we agree in principle to the idea of empowering local boards, the size and number of them becomes less critical. From then on, our view was that a greater number of boards would be quite acceptable, because once we take the question of powers out of the equation, community of interest rather than capability becomes the most important criterion. When we look across Auckland we see that many smaller communities like Waiheke and Great Barrier Island, which are island communities, obviously, have a clearly established community of interest. We felt that rather than the six to 12 local boards that we were initially advocating, something like 14 to 20 would be a more appropriate range.

We took that view because we believed that there are a range of large and small communities in Auckland that have an established community of interest. To go with the number of local boards that the Government has put forward in the bill, which is 20 to 30—if we contemplate the idea of 30 local boards across Auckland—would mean that many of the larger established communities of interest like Waitakere and Manukau would be dismembered and chopped up into small pieces. When the select committee toured around Auckland hearing submissions it was very clear that people in various parts of Auckland felt they had been well served by their councils. They felt those councils represented communities of interest.

I will also say that one of the main concerns for Labour in taking a more conservative approach to the number and the size of local boards was that we felt that the boards need to have a certain critical mass, a certain size, in order to be able to do the place-shaping work. I will use a couple of examples from Waitakere City that are relevant. One of the most impressive things about Waitakere is the economic development work that the council has done, developing quite large areas—

Hon David Cunliffe: Does Rodney Hide believe in that?

PHIL TWYFORD: It is an active state; it is active local government. It is one of the four well-beings. It certainly does not fit within his definition of core services.

Hon SHANE JONES (Labour) : Kia ora anō tātou. Mr John Carter, who is sitting next to you, Mr Chairperson, made reference to the fact that there is an absence of content in the speeches that we have been offering on this side of the Chamber in the Committee stage of the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. That is gross. That is not only wrong but unfair.

I will start with the boundaries. There is no rhyme or reason why the people of Rodney have been put through a roundabout of emotional turmoil while National addresses its own constituency agendas as it tries to draw the boundary in Rodney. There was no principle there. It suited that party to ransack the Royal Commission on Auckland Governance to suit its own political, petty, short-term objectives. This side of the Committee has not done that. This side of the Committee has acted, in so far as the royal commission goes, with great integrity.

I put on record that the references I have made to mana whenua being unworkable and an assault on established democratic standards are revealed in that wretched Supplementary Order Paper put forward by the Māori Party that says that everyone has to first declare his or her whakapapa. Something akin to a genealogical unit would need to be set up to establish how much of someone’s genealogy belongs to a particular mana whenua tribe. Those issues do not belong in civic space; they belong in the space of the marae. Complicated democratic procedures ought not to be entangled with matters that have to do with marae entitlement, customary ancestry, and the affairs of tangata whenua.

Simon Bridges: So all your colleagues who have been going on about it all week have been wrong?

Hon SHANE JONES: We are hearing there from the man who was regarded as a cultural truant when he attempted to speak at the mana whenua, tangata whenua Māori subcommittee on representation. It was evident that that young man, who has senatorial pretensions in Tauranga, is the self-defined prodigy of the National Party. He boasts in Tauranga, with his senatorial ambitions, that every day he does something it is worth 20 years of Winston Peters’ life of service. Of course, we also find every time that young man comes to the Chamber that he does not rant; he pants. He runs from mirror to mirror, so we know exactly how he was regarded on this issue of being Māori. If I were regarded as and called a cultural truant, I would go back to kōhanga reo.

I come back to the issue of mana whenua. It is a legitimate aspect of Māori identity. We in the Labour Party, however, did not feel that it would address the entirety of the Māori population living within the area of Auckland. That, I say to Mr Carter, is a very important point of principle. We could have taken the soft option and agreed with the Māori Party, and operated on the politics of apologia, but we took what was a very hard, but tried and true, option. That is that if a person belongs to a Māori iwi and he or she is on the Māori roll, then that person is entitled to vote, not only if he or she is from Ngāti Whātua or Tainui, and not only if that party is doing secret deals with the big iwi so that funds could be gathered for the next election and the basic working-class Māori could be sold out on climate change. We did not take that route; the Māori Party took that route. Those members are the ones who have favoured the pūtea table over the kitchen table.

It is not correct for the Minister in the chair to say there was no principle or kaupapa. We do not want to turn mana whenua debates into a new gravy train or grievance mentality as to which hapū, which marae, or which tribe ought to be sitting at the council table. We wanted, on the basis of citizenship, those Māori who are entitled to vote for their parliamentary Māori representatives in this Chamber to have the same level of entitlement in the area of Tāmaki-makau-rau Auckland. The perversity of the Māori Party’s mana whenua argument is that Pita Sharples himself would not have been able to be voted into this Parliament. That occurred to us a long time before it occurred to the Māori Party members, but it probably suited them, and the Māori National Party members, who came up with such a complicated model that it was designed to fail. There is a massive point of principle here, and I will debate that principle on every marae in this country. We are here for te iti me te rahi—all Māori voters of Auckland, not the favoured, privileged few who might have marae in Auckland urban areas. Kia ora tātou.

Dr RAJEN PRASAD (Labour) : I was listening very, very hard to what the Minister in the chair, John Carter, was saying a little earlier, and I was wondering how he would design a car. I suspect that Mr Carter would perhaps design the steering wheel first and say that he has the steering wheel. Having done that, he might have stage two, where he might decide what the body of the car might look like, and he then would take another 6 months to decide on the body.

The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch): I am sorry to interrupt the member. This cross-exchange here has nothing to do with the member speaking. I ask those members to show courtesy to the member speaking.

Hon Shane Jones: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. A very controversial point about the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill is the entitlement of Māori to be represented in the system of governance. I have challenged a member on the other side of the Chamber—

The CHAIRPERSON (Lindsay Tisch): Thank you, Mr Jones. You brought that up when you were speaking, and there will other opportunities to take further calls. I ask you to respect Dr Rajen Prasad.

Dr RAJEN PRASAD: Then Mr Carter would wonder what kind of engine would be required at stage three, and he would then set about designing an engine. In the end, he would have a dog’s body. When Mr Carter talks about this legislation being well designed—that we will have stage one, stage two, and stage three—and somehow expects at the end of it that some logic will emerge, he is defying logic and good science.

I think that anybody who designs such a major constitutional change ought to accept the responsibility, and the National Government ought to internalise its responsibility to really give a much broader sense of where all the parts would fit so we could, at any one point, look at the whole thing at the same time. I think that is a responsibility the Government has failed in, so we now have to do stage two of the reforms and come back in a few months’ time to do stage three. We are promised that in stage three all these problems will be solved. It will be too late by then because some of the problems of stage three are being enshrined in stage two, in this particular legislation, right now. I think that is a silly way of designing social policy and designing such a major constitutional change.

I will talk about community boards for a minute. When the Government came up with its idea that there would be 20 to 30 boards, the range of that figure immediately reflects to anybody listening hard enough that the Government does not know how many boards there will be. It is a guess at the moment. There is no logic or science to that.

Nikki Kaye: You’ve got a range of 40 to 50. How is that different from your range?

Dr RAJEN PRASAD: Nikki Kaye can say for as long as she likes that we accepted the unitary authority, but we do not accept it at any price. The member has been talking about that today, but this is different. One looks for the logic of 20 to 30 boards, as I am sure my colleagues are looking. What is the logic? There is none, and there was none. The logic we applied to the number of community boards, as has just been explained by Mr Twyford, is viable.

Nikki Kaye: Which is what?

Dr RAJEN PRASAD: What is viable? I am telling the member now; it is the logic behind the decisions we have made and what we will support. Communities and their interests are important, and we should not chop them up. We can find a way for them to maintain as much of that as possible. That is the logic that leads us to say that we do not take west Auckland and chop it up so that we may have 30 boards. There is nothing illogical about what we are saying. We are saying quite clearly that there is a lot that is illogical about this bill. We have been taking it and deconstructing it limb by limb all day, and we will do it all night, all of next week, and all of the week after if we need to.

This bill is important. It is about the city we love, the city where our children have grown up and where our grandchildren will grow up. It is important for us. One can see quite clearly that when it comes to representation, the process, and the range of decisions, there is a lack of logic around the whole thing. The same applies when we look at the role of the community boards. This worries me a great deal because this will be the tier that will be closest to our families and to those for whom a particular locality is very special. They ought to be involved in the fundamental decisions that have to be made. We are not talking about not taking out those things that have to be centrally organised. Under the current system, the boards do not have enough power. If we read clause 13D(2)(b)(i), (ii), and (iii), we see that therein lies the constraints on the board.

Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour—New Lynn) : I think we have heard a number of good speeches recently. I commend my colleague and friend Rajen Prasad who has just resumed his seat, and of course the recent contribution from the Hon Shane Jones was excellent as well. I also think the previous comments of the Minister in the chair, the Hon John Carter, were useful in their challenge to us to provide a reasoned statement, as my two colleagues have just done, about the nature of our position on the local boards.

Let us go back to basics. In the first draft of the Government’s proposals, the idea of having a large number of very, very small local boards representing a minimalist view of the State—the Rodney Hide Cabinet paper writ large through the Auckland bill, core services only, no say in their own destiny, could not buy a pencil sharpener, could not hire a staff member, and could hardly make a decision at all—went down like a bucket of sick with Aucklanders, and rightly so. There is nothing like the Rodney Hide vision of the world that has peeled away public support in my part of the world from this Government, other than perhaps the funding cuts to adult and community education—the most expensive $10 million this Government is ever going to save in its 3 years in power.

But that was the starting problem. The Government threw the baby out with the bathwater. It was a deliberate policy of divide and rule. The Government wanted a super powerful unitary Auckland Council gerrymandered to be dominated by the right, with at-large councillors, for generations to come—a gravy train for John Banks; that was the idea—and it wanted to brook no disagreement from below. It would face no threat from a large number of disempowered local boards that were entirely captive to it, in terms of fund-raising, rating, policy making, employment, and definition setting. That was the case reasoned in the submissions, and I can go through the list but I will need more calls to do so. I have pages and pages of submissions from groups—everything from, starting at A, Andrew Body Ltd, Auckland City Council, Cheryl Backstrom from Parnell Trust, Waitakere Enterprise, Peter Buchanan—the list goes on and on. People rose up and said that this model was excessively minimalist and they did not want it, so change it!

Here is where we have to give the Government some reasonable degree of credit. The Government did pare back some of the worst excesses of the Rodney Hide model. It has given the local boards some say in the definition of their local role and in place-shaping; let us say that. But, as my colleagues have said, there are two enduring problems. The first is that there are too many boards. Thirty local boards is way too many. It is divide and rule, still. In my part of Auckland, in Waitakere City, that means going back to the bad old days of the boroughs. It means New Lynn borough competing with Henderson borough, or the Waitakere ward, or the Massey ward. It means internecine feuding, frankly, of the worst possible kind. Waitakere City residents were pleased to get away from that; they identify as west Aucklanders with Waitakere as an entity, and not so much with New Lynn, Henderson, or Massey. We do not want to get the worst features of the old system back again, and there is further work needed to make sure that the numbers are contained so that we have genuine communities of interest, with enough cohesion and power to have an upwards say to the Auckland Council. That is the scale issue.

The second issue is empowerment. It is one thing to draw a diagram and say that this is how we will make policy, and that is as simple as we have it. It has a few spider legs on it. It is another thing to give local boards the resources and the critical mass to carry it out. It remains the case that even after the moderation of this ghastly provision, local boards are still completely captive because they cannot raise a rate. They cannot even put a differential rate on without the Auckland City Council’s approval. An activist local board such as New Lynn, my own dear town, would not have the scale, nor would it have the resources nor the political clout to mount a project of the nature of the New Lynn rail undergrounding and civic transformation. That is costing $300 million and it could not be done under this model. That is the key example.

SUE KEDGLEY (Green) : I have just a couple of points that I want to take up. Firstly, I want to finish the point I was making in my previous intervention about the huge costs of the Auckland restructuring. The interesting point is that we are told that the costs, according to the royal commission, are expected to be about $140 million. We have not been told where this money is coming from. The savings are predicted to be 2.5 to 3.5 percent. I also want to mention that academic papers have been written about the international experience of local government amalgamation. It has been found that almost always huge savings have been predicted, but they have not come about. For example, in South Australia the authorities promised savings of 17.4 percent, but achieved savings of a mere 2.3 percent only. We have been promised savings of only 2.5 percent in Auckland, but maybe, based on overseas experience, there will be no savings at all.

It is interesting that the Government has barely mentioned—in fact, I do not think I have heard any Government members mention—that there will be any savings to the ratepayer as a result of this extraordinary amalgamation, this disruption, this wiping out of very effective local councils and their replacement with tiny little local boards. Barely anyone has mentioned that there will be savings. Obviously, the answer is that there will not be savings. Indeed, there will be huge costs, and those costs will be picked up as a liability by Auckland ratepayers.

The other thing that the international studies have discussed is forced amalgamations. In my definition this is a forced amalgamation, because the people of Auckland never got to vote on it. There was an issue in Christchurch as to whether Akaroa should merge with Christchurch. The people there had a proper debate—an intense debate—a poll, a vote, and a referendum. It was won, and everyone accepted the amalgamation. People accepted it because they voted for it. But in Auckland people have never had the opportunity to vote on the issue; therefore it fits the definition of a forced amalgamation. The international experience of forced amalgamations is that far from reducing parochialism, which amalgamation is allegedly intended to do, there is so much simmering resentment in the community about the forced amalgamation that all that results is more parochialism and more resentment. I predict, as Mayor Williams has done, that this is what will happen. We will get even more parochialism and resentment once the communities realise how limited their local boards’ powers are.

The second thing that I want to mention is that it is not just the number of local boards that makes them impotent but the fact that there are to be only four to nine members on those boards. I have an amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 53 in my name that says there should be a minimum of 11 members on local boards. I agree with Phil Twyford, who said there should be 14 to 17 members—that is certainly a reasonable number. But to have four to nine members on local boards is ridiculous. If we have four to nine members, that will mean the smaller councils—for example, on Waiheke—would be likely to have only four members. A gang of four could be running Waiheke. Having four people on a local board would give it no credibility. That is ridiculous. The boards will not have the ability to do place-shaping and to do local representation, if there are only four to nine members. I have an amendment, which I hope the Government will support, to increase the size of boards to a minimum of 11 members. I think most community boards have 11 or 12 members, so to get down to having four to nine members on local boards is ridiculous. We would ask the Government to please reconsider that, because we will not have genuine local boards and local grassroots democracy with a mere four to nine members.

The other thing that we need to remember—and I am glad that my colleague Roger Douglas has come into the Chamber, and I want to support very strongly Phil Twyford’s amendment about preventing the sale of the $28 billion of assets—

Hon Sir ROGER DOUGLAS (ACT) : I thought I would take a call because I want to touch on the whole issue of community boards. As I listen to this debate on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill, the real worry I have is that the debate is all about structure, and not about function. Actual structure follows function, and not the other way round. That point has been missed, particularly by the members of the Labour Party. It was really a problem for the royal commission, which tended to focus only on structure, and I think that is why in the end we got a rather poor report. That is why the mayor and the councillors spent the whole duration of the royal commission process seeking to protect their own territory while continuing to spend more money and to increase our rates.

It seems to me that any determination of the appropriate structure of local government must, as I said, flow from functions rather than from structure. The first thing we need to determine is what issues or functions will be delegated by central government to local government, and, having decided that, it will tend to determine the nature or the structure of local government. The principle that should underline the structure of local government is that those most affected by councils’ decisions must have the capacity to voice their opinion. That is why I favour closer to 30 local boards, as opposed to 20 local boards. They should have the capacity to voice their opinion. The principle is commonly known as subsidiarity: the idea that matters ought to be dealt with by the least centralised but most competent authority we have. For decisions over things like food, we do it ourselves, but when it comes to a local library and a local swimming pool it should be done by local people. The number of community boards, set at 20 to 30 in this bill, is a move in the right direction. I personally favour 30 over 20.

Community boards should be small enough—and this is the point not argued particularly well by Labour—to represent genuine communities and not just be more bureaucratic structures. Labour has this afternoon suggested more and more bureaucratic structures, whereas if we get back to the community, we will have genuine communities of interest rather than those advocated by the royal commission. In Manukau, where I come from, there are at least six and probably seven genuine communities of interest: Botany; Pakuranga; Howick; Manurewa, whose community board is probably bigger than almost 90 percent of local governments in New Zealand; Ōtara and Papatoetoe, which are probably two communities, but possibly one; Māngere; and the rural area surrounding Clevedon. These are genuine communities of interest, and they would all be able to make better decisions than the old Manukau City Council did. That is why I push for 30 boards rather than 20 boards—in Manukau there are at least six communities, and probably seven.

The big thing that we must do, and the thing that we have not done, is ensure that structure follows function. We have not been doing that. If we think about local government, we see that a lot of things will be done at the regional level, and are best able to be done at the regional level, but a huge number of functions of local government can be best carried out by local people in their own communities. Therefore, I congratulate the Government and the Minister of Local Government on moving from 20 to 30 community boards as opposed to the seven or eight that the royal commission suggested.

CARMEL SEPULONI (Labour) : I want to go back to something Mr Carter said earlier, and that was with regard to what Labour stands for. Mr Carter was questioning whether Labour knows what it stands for. I found that kind of ironic, given that Steve Chadwick has just talked about the fact that Labour stands for looking for the social, cultural, and economic benefits of Auckland City, rather than just the economic benefits.

I think that what this bill has brought to light, if people have not already realised it, is that National’s priorities have not changed. They have not changed at all, and that is something I want to speak about a little bit before I get on to the local boards. Early in the piece, when a public consultation meeting was held in the Mt Roskill electorate, National decided that it would get out there and consult, even though many of the decisions had already been made.

National had one of those meetings in Mt Roskill, and given that I live in Mt Roskill I thought after dinner that I would walk up to the meeting and see what the National members of Parliament had to say and the way in which they listened to the local residents. I went there knowing that Jackie Blue would be there. Unfortunately, although Jackie Blue is the National member working in Mt Roskill, she did not really talk. I think she just said hello at the beginning, and then John Carter took over.

I found the meeting really interesting, and I gained quite an insight that night. I did not know any of the people at that meeting, and I sat there listening to what they had to say. I was pleasantly surprised that everything they had to say with regard to the concerns they had was aligned with everything Labour was pushing for. Members on this side of the Chamber cannot be criticised for not listening, because the things we have been pushing for are evident in the submissions that have been made and the concerns that have been expressed in all the public community meetings—not just the ones held by Labour but the ones held by National. I can attest to that because I attended one of them, and it made the whole issue of priorities spring to light.

We are seeing a return to National’s traditional agenda. Unfortunately, it has always been there, but it is has not been as overt as some might need it to be in order to be able to see it. One thing that does concern me—and we can see this; it is quite blatant—is that the National-ACT candidate for mayor of the super-city is John Banks.

One of the big issues that has been raised as we have moved round Auckland City has been the concern about the sale of public assets. I congratulate my colleague Phil Twyford on the Not Yours to Sell campaign he has been running. It is something that a lot of people have picked up on. It is a very real concern. The National Government can go out there and say it has no intention of selling public assets, or it can go out there and be very quiet about it, but we know that National’s No. 1 person—and ACT’s No. 1 person—who is running for mayor, John Banks, is renowned for his reputation with regard to the selling of public assets. So selling public assets is obviously high on the agenda for National and ACT.

One issue that has been raised across Auckland, especially in Manukau, is the fact that some areas of the Auckland region have held on to their public assets. Manukau has made a lot of revenue from the public assets the council held on to and chose not to sell. So when we discuss the details of this bill it is very important that we look at the underlying agenda. The underlying agenda is that National’s priorities have not changed since the 1990s. National still wants to sell our public assets at every opportunity, and its agenda is epitomised by the fact that someone like John Banks is its No. 1 person and is standing as the National/ACT candidate for mayor of Auckland.

I will just touch on the matter of the matter of the size and number of the local boards. The royal commission proposed six councils, roughly modelled on the existing councils. We have all the facilities there. It would be a complete waste to see those go. The Government then announced it wanted 20 to 30 community boards. We have argued for fewer boards than the Government proposes, to enable them to be large enough to be viable and influential.

Dr CAM CALDER (National) : Thank you for the opportunity to rise and take the call on this very important bill, the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. Members of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, including my colleague Nikki Kaye, have collectively spent thousands of hours listening to the people of Greater Auckland on this very important matter—this hugely important matter—under the esteemed leadership of the Associate Minister of Local Government, John Carter. We have listened carefully and responded thoughtfully. A wide range of views have been expressed. As the Prime Minister has stated, the aim of this exercise is to allow Auckland to think regionally, plan strategically, and act decisively—a feeling probably completely foreign to members on the other side of the Chamber. Just as in days gone by the performance of the Auckland rugby team was held to presage a fearsomely competitive All Black pack, so in the future we believe that a strong, vibrant Auckland City, nurturing its diverse inhabitants and encouraging them to reach their full potential, will result in a New Zealand—our nation—able to do the same on the global stage. If we get it right in Epsom, if we get it right in Manurewa, if we get it right in Auckland, we get it right for New Zealand.

I personally do not agree with W Somerset Maugham, who said that in great cities men are like a lot of stones thrown together in a bag: their jagged corners are rubbed off until in the end they are as smooth as marbles. The decision to have 20 or 30 local boards means that the different and diverse communities in Auckland, which make up Greater Auckland, will be recognised and the communities of interest will be supported. We had a very erudite contribution from Sir Roger, who talked about the bedrock of the European Union: the concept of subsidiarity. A community of interest could potentially be 100,000 people in Auckland, as my honourable friend pointed out, or it could be 50,000. Its structures will be determined by the Local Government Commission.

Few folk in this Chamber or, I am sure, in Auckland or New Zealand have not heard of Sir John Logan Campbell, the founder of Auckland, whose gift to the people of Auckland—Cornwall Park, in the vibrant electorate of Epsom—is enjoyed by thousands of people from all the cities across the Auckland isthmus to this day. Sir Dove-Myer Robinson’s vision was greater than that of his fellow councillors at the time, and we are very grateful for the cleanliness of our beaches, which is largely down to him.

What, then, is the background to this Greater Auckland issue? The reality is that the problems with the governance of Auckland have been recognised for years. The indolent, unlamented, lackadaisical, late Labour administration sat on its hands for almost 9 years, then set up a royal commission. [Interruption] How long was it? It was 9 years. Then it set up a royal commission. We were challenged by the royal commission to make the changes needed in time for elections a little over a year from now. Hence the need for urgency. We are on track; we are on time; we are delivering for Auckland.

The report of the royal commission was not the only thing that made known the need to reform local government in Auckland, and this is what makes Labour’s dilatoriness and indolence so hard to understand. Auckland’s future has been debated for decades. Michael Joseph Savage, whose name may be known to members opposite, stood on a one-council policy in 1919. Why do they not dredge through some old copies of Hansard and get some inspiration for the future?

SU’A WILLIAM SIO (Labour—Māngere) : That contribution from Cam Calder was the worst I have heard in this Committee, and I blame the Minister in the chair, Hon John Carter. Where are the members of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee? Where is Nikki Kaye? Where is the contribution from Simon Bridges? Where is the contribution from Tau Henare? Why are they being silenced in this Chamber?

To be fair, I acknowledge the Hon John Carter because, as the Associate Minister of Local Government, he was a good chair of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee. He was welcoming of the public and he was very positive. In fact, as the themes from the submitters became prominent, he began to raise the expectations of the community. One of the very first things that the Hon John Carter said was “We will empower boards.” That was the very first thing, and overwhelmingly, as we listened to submissions from the four corners of the Auckland region, that was one of the things of concern that was raised. As I listened to John Carter chair those meetings, I wondered why National did not appoint him as the Minister of Local Government. Why is that? He should have been the Minister but, alas, as the Associate Minister his strings are being pulled by the Minister, Mr Rodney Hide.

In the submissions advocated by various representatives from the community, they were generally quite concerned about the initial Government proposal regarding local boards. After the royal commission had conducted its work, it recommended that there be six local boards that basically follow the boundaries of the existing main cities in Auckland. The Government’s response was 20 to 30 boards. It sent that out for public consultation, and that was it. Labour argued in its proposal for local boards that are large enough to have some influence but small enough still to be able to represent our various communities. Many of the communities that made submissions raised concerns about the powers to be clarified. They wanted powers to be identified in the legislation. They wanted funding to be put in the legislation. In fact, I recall one submitter even recommended that each local board be given $5 million per year to conduct their affairs.

There were issues raised about staffing as to how these local boards would be able to deliver their roles and organise their functions. Of course, that is a significant issue because there are about 6,000 staff throughout the Auckland region who work for local government. But there has been so much uncertainty about this particular process, and there is so much rush and hastiness, that everybody is afraid and morale is low. I suspect if we are unable to provide some guarantee to the 6,000-plus staff for the next 2 years or 3 years, many of them will leave. They will leave for overseas or for other jobs. Yet we have not yet completed this work. We have not yet identified the boundaries because the staffing will be determined on the basis of how big or small those particular boards will be. If we do not have sufficient staffing, it means that local boards will be competing for somebody to take the minutes, to look after the parks, or to put up a proposal on their planning.

People were also concerned about assets. They wanted local boards to be able to have control of some of their community assets—things like libraries and swimming pools. Social services is another area where people raised their concerns. They wanted to know about the art and community projects that are currently being delivered in Māngere and throughout the city. The problem in the Government’s proposal is that the local boards are still subservient to the local council.

NIKKI KAYE (National—Auckland Central) : I want to make the point that it is very clear from the speeches coming from the other side that Labour members have not read the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. Another point I want to make is specifically around the powers of the local boards. There is a clear principle in the legislation that decisions will be made at the lowest possible level, except for some exceptions. Another point that I pick up on, which the previous speaker, Su’a William Sio, raised, is around the issue of staff and support. In the legislation it is also very clear that local boards will have to be adequately and fully resourced. They will not be able to employ staff, but they will have to have enough staff to support the activities for their community.

Another point that I want to raise is specifically around an issue raised during the select committee process. We heard about Phil Twyford going around communities spreading the threat of Armageddon, telling the arts community that they would not have funding. But I want to make a very clear point that I ask Labour to listen to. Within the legislation there is a very clear principle—and this is backed up in the local government legislation—around the promotion of social, economic, environmental, and cultural well-being of the community. It is very clear; it is within the legislation. Any assertion to the contrary is absolutely wrong. Another point that I want to make very clear is that when Mr Twyford went around those communities, he also went on about at-large councillors, saying we cannot expect them to float around the community without a constituency. There was a hilarious moment in the select committee process when someone yelled to him: “Hey, Phil, aren’t you a list MP?”.

I say that the community did speak very loudly and very clearly on this issue. As a result it became another area where this Government can say it has listened, and we no longer have at-large councillors. The other point that has been made consistently today has been around funding. I do not think that any speakers have really talked about this. Again, I raise this particular issue with Labour because I do not think the members have read the legislation. The funding provisions in the legislation have the power to really empower certain communities within Auckland. There are issues in Auckland in terms of certain minority groups. We know there are issues in South Auckland. I draw members’ attention to this provision within the legislation. I asked Len Brown about those issues when he came to the select committee. I said to him that some people have said that they want one unitary authority to come to Auckland, for the reason that maybe there will be communities within South Auckland that will finally get the school pools that they want and that they really deserve in their communities. The principle within the legislation is that the funding formula must take into account socio-economic conditions. Mr Brown turned to me and said: “Nikki, you know what, that is the great white hope of this legislation.” The great white hope is that finally communities in Auckland will be able to have some equality in terms of services. Members on the opposite side are very quiet, because they are voting against a bill that will not only deliver the infrastructure for Auckland and strong local entities for the communities across Auckland but also potentially help some of the poorer people in Auckland. Members on the opposite side have not addressed that.

The last and final point that I want to make that Labour needs to understand is that, on the question of the number of local boards—and they need to stand up and really address this point—Labour has slipped from 14 all the way to 20. National said there should be 20 to 30 local boards. What is the difference between our 20 and Labour’s 20? Potentially, nothing. So we may actually agree on the number of local boards. In response to the arguments that have been raised about communities being cut up, all I say is that there will be a process in terms of the Local Government Commission. It will be up to the commission to define what a community of interest is. But I ask Mr Hawkins about saving Papakura with 14 local boards. I do not think so. Labour is supporting a provision that would mean that Papakura would not have a local board. The members on the opposite side know that, and there are members in constituency seats who are looking very worried right now. They have backed themselves into a corner.

At the end of the day, we are delivering legislation for Auckland that is historic, that will finally deliver some equity to local communities, and that will finally give them decent local representation. I am proud to support this legislation.

LYNNE PILLAY (Labour) : That speech from Nikki Kaye was just appalling. She stood there and said that members on this side of the Chamber have not read the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill and we do not understand it. Yeah, right!

Darien Fenton: Arrogant!

LYNNE PILLAY: It is arrogant; I take that point. But, also, in saying that to us Nikki Kaye was saying it to almost every Aucklander who shares this view. I tell this Committee that there is more common sense on that Table with those Supplementary Order Papers then there is in this bill. There is more proof of listening to the people of Auckland on that Table then there is in this bill. What is on that Table? Are there any Supplementary Order Papers from National? Is there any last-minute document that says “Gosh, maybe we are wrong.”? No. National has said that it has given us the trophy; it has said it accepted the at-large issue. It has managed to bring in this legislation, and it will give a lot of power to communities by creating 30 small boards with very little. Those boards will be competing, as my friend William Sio said, not only for funding but also for the ability to run their campaigns. The funding will not be there for all those organisations. As, I think, David Cunliffe said before me, we will get back to the old days of patch protection, which will not bring Auckland forward.

I want to talk about some of the really good submissions to the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee. This council should truly represent Auckland—Greater Auckland’s interest—which we know it does not. Labour looks forward to the Government supporting amendments such as having a Pacific Advisory Board. If I look at my community of Waitakere, I see that there is a Pacific advisory board at the Waitakere City Council as well as an ethnic advisory board and a youth council. That progress happens in a city like Waitakere.

I hope that we do not have John Banks as mayor, and I am pretty confident that we will not. Can members imagine a city of the future under John Banks? It would be Gotham City. It would be a shocker. Can members imagine it? It would be terrible. Where would the input of local communities be under a mayor with those supreme powers?

• Sitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.

LYNNE PILLAY: I was talking about something that many members on this side of the Chamber are aware of, and I think we can see members on the other side are starting to see some merit in it: the ineffectiveness of these local boards under the current proposal. It is not too late for the Government to take heed of what not only members on this side of the Chamber are saying, but also what the Greens have said consistently, and to ensure that there is real representation. We know that if representation is disjointed or is across a number of boards then it will not be effective.

As I said before, if we look at the myriad of different schemes and innovations that go on across a city—

Hon Gerry Brownlee: Name two!

LYNNE PILLAY: In Waitakere, there is EcoMatters Environment Trust, Project Twin Streams, and Plunket’s Trees for Babies. I could go on and on.

Hon Gerry Brownlee: Stop showing off!

LYNNE PILLAY: I know the member does not have those schemes—Christchurch is not quite that innovative—but in Waitakere we certainly do. All of those schemes will be at risk because under a lot of boards that will be competing for the dollar—that is what it will be like—and for services, we will not see those really important projects continue to grow and thrive as they have so much in Waitakere City.

The other thing I touched on, and would like to talk about again, is having a Pacific Advisory Board, an Auckland Youth Council, and, of course, an Asian Advisory Board as part of the council. I commend my colleagues who have tabled Supplementary Order Papers, which, as I said before, are far more constructive than anything I have seen in the bill. Having those boards would mean real democracy at grassroots and would be supported, I hope, by every member in this Chamber. I know that many of my colleagues have spoken about those boards before.

Effectively, so much is missing from this bill. As we have always said, if the topic of this bill had gone to a referendum, if the Government had brought Aucklanders with it, then it would not have the debacle we see now.

PHIL TWYFORD (Labour) : I will continue with the comments I was making earlier about local boards. I am sorry that the member for Auckland Central, Nikki Kaye, is not here to be part of this discussion, because I know how important the subject is for her. Perhaps someone could send her a message. We talked about the number of local boards before and I set out Labour’s thinking about why we are proposing in our amendment that there should be a number within a range of 14 to 20 local boards. But the question of their powers is also perhaps one of the most important, one of the most tricky, and one of the most complicated elements in the entire super-city model.

We heard much trumpeting from the Government members that they have listened to public opinion and have decided to fully empower the boards. Let me describe what we actually have here. We have local boards that have no legal status—no legal personality. They have no staff, they have no property, they have no ability to levy rates, they have no service delivery function, and they have no regulatory function. They do not even have the ability to paint a yellow line along the side of the road. Two key areas of local government are the provision of water and the operation of our transport system; neither water nor transport will go anywhere near the local boards.

These local boards will have a budget that they will have to bid for on an annual basis in an annual budget round as part of the unitary authority. They will have delegated powers. The board sets out a process and a number of principles that require the unitary authority, the Auckland Council, to delegate certain things downwards, but there are important qualifiers on those delegations. If, the analysis says, these certain activities or decision-making functions are best carried out on a regional basis or have an impact that goes beyond the local area that the board represents, then those powers will be kept upstairs, in the Auckland Council.

Local boards have the ability to propose by-laws, but when we put all of those elements together, it is very clear that this is an extremely constrained exercise of decision-making power by these boards. Let me repeat that they have no legal status, no staff, no property, and no ability to exercise any kind of regulatory function, and they have no engagement with transport or water. They have delegated powers within a fairly heavily prescribed set of principles under the legislation, but they may not, or will not, make decisions on matters that go beyond their geographic area, and they will not make decisions if those matters are better dealt with by using a cost-benefit analysis on a regional basis. Whichever way we slice it, I say to members, this is a very, very constrained model.

I believe that the jury is still out. I am not saying that the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee and the Government have not made a genuine attempt to design a package of powers that would work. But I am not sure. If I apply two tests to the powers in this bill, then I think the jury is still out. The first test is whether these boards will have sufficient clout—whether they will have sufficient autonomy and decision-making power—to really make a difference in their local communities in order to play the place-shaping role that we want them to play. The second test is whether these local boards are capable of adequately balancing the centralisation of powers that we are implementing and we are investing in the Auckland Council. That was a key principle that the royal commission set out.

I believe that the jury is still out. The test will be in the eating, and if the Government has got this legislation wrong, then it will probably be the single biggest flaw in the super-city model.

H V ROSS ROBERTSON (Labour—Manukau East) : Kia ora tātou. Nō reira e te Whare. We are talking this evening about local boards. “Democracy a pipe dream when all roads lead to Rome”; let me just quote that headline, because I think it aptly sums up exactly where we are at when it comes to the issue of local boards and the powers that they will have.

Hon Gerry Brownlee: Your printer’s broken; you’ve missed a bit out!

H V ROSS ROBERTSON: No, it is not, I say to Mr Brownlee. The printer is exactly right. The article starts by saying: “Maybe I’m being excessively pessimistic, but it looks as though the proposed 20 to 30 local boards in the new Auckland Super City will be little more than part-pressure valves, part-whipping boys, for the Auckland Council proper.”

Hon Darren Hughes: Who said that?

H V ROSS ROBERTSON: I have not finished yet. The article continues: “The parliamentary select committee has tried to paint a picture of busy little councils dotted around the region, happily governing their semi-autonomous fiefdoms, at arm’s length from the sway of the emperor-mayor and his council. But wherever you look in their report, all roads inevitably lead back to Rome. Rome controls the purse strings. Rome can also overrule any local decision that contradicts regional policy.”

That is where we on this side of the Chamber—the loyal Labour Opposition—have a difference of opinion with the Government and its support parties. Why? Because we do not trust what might happen to those regions that do not have the economic clout or the voice to stand up for them.

Hon Tau Henare: What’s that got to do with Rome?

H V ROSS ROBERTSON: Just wait a bit, I say to Mr Henare. In my electorate I now represent people from both Manukau City and Auckland City. When I took over the Auckland part of the electorate, Ōtāhuhu, I learnt just how differently councils treat their most vulnerable people. We had free swimming pools in Manukau City, and I was stunned to find that when I walked over the border into Auckland City and looked at Ōtāhuhu, I found it did not have a swimming pool, I say to Mr Hughes.

Hon Darren Hughes: What?

H V ROSS ROBERTSON: It did not have a swimming pool. No, it did not. Ōtāhuhu did not have a swimming pool. That says to me that different councils treat their most vulnerable people differently.

I worry about what will happen when Manukau City is swallowed up into the larger Auckland City. If Auckland City had treated its ratepayers in Ōtāhuhu in the way that Manukau City treated its ratepayers, then Ōtāhuhu would have had a swimming pool. I have heard the Minister in the chair, the Hon John Carter, make mention of this issue and say the boards will be able to do those sorts of things. But we on this side of the Chamber are worried about that, because how much power will the local boards really have? I cannot hear Mr Carter; I ask him to say it again. How much power is there?

Hon John Carter: Heaps.

H V ROSS ROBERTSON: He tells me that it is heaps. I will hold Mr Carter to that statement that the boards will have heaps of power.

Hon Darren Hughes: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. The member for Manukau East is making a very fine contribution, but he is being interjected on by Hone Harawira, who looks very comfortable there on the National Government front bench. He looks as though he is pretty keen to be there, but I think that he has moved from his seat for the purposes of interjecting right across on Mr Robertson. I think, notwithstanding Tau Henare’s new home, that that is just not fair on Mr Robertson.

Hon Tau Henare: Speaking to the point of order—

The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker): I do not need any help with this matter. I thought that the interjections were rare, sometimes reasonable, and occasionally witty—which is rare in this place—and that Mr Robertson was making his point very well and even getting responses out of the Minister in the chair. I thought that the debate was moving along quite nicely. I invite Mr Robertson to continue with his fine oratory about the swimming pool in South Auckland. I am engrossed.

H V ROSS ROBERTSON: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I can remember sitting in the particular position where you are now, and I am grateful to the Hon Darren Hughes for raising the point of order to note that Mr Hone Harawira has moved in order to facilitate interjections.

But putting that aside, let us get back to the issue of the swimming pools, I say to Mr Carter, because that is where I, as a local member of Parliament, have a real concern. I have witnessed it firsthand. I have seen how the people of Ōtāhuhu are treated under the current Auckland City Council, and I can judge that. I have been a member of Parliament for 22 years now, with most of them spent in the Manukau East electorate, and I am still here.

Hon Gerry Brownlee: How long?

H V ROSS ROBERTSON: I have vast experience, I say to Mr Brownlee—

Hon Maurice Williamson: No way you’ve been a member of Parliament that long!

H V ROSS ROBERTSON: —over the same length of time as Mr Williamson. We both came in together; it was a good vintage, that year. But in South Auckland we have a real concern over the issue of ratepayer funding for swimming pools, because Ōtāhuhu has been left out. It has been hung, drawn, and quartered. We led a protest march in Ōtāhuhu, the first in many, many years, and what happened? It was totally ignored. It was totally ignored by the Auckland City Council. If the council does that to Ōtāhuhu now, what will it do when it controls all of Auckland?

We have a real concern for the people whom we represent: the most vulnerable in our society.

DARIEN FENTON (Labour) : I want to talk a little about local boards, but first I will acknowledge the chair of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, the Hon John Carter.

Hon Darren Hughes: The Minister and the chair.

DARIEN FENTON: Yes. The Minister in the chair was also the chair of the select committee.

When I was at the select committee—and I thought it was rather sweet, really—I heard John Carter saying, as the community organisations came through: “Isn’t it great? I didn’t know all these neat community organisations existed in Auckland.” The comment was genuine, I thought, and it was nice, but it was a bit ironic, because he had not worked out before he came to the select committee that that is what Auckland is about.

When we sat through the select committee hearings one of the primary themes from locals was concern over the loss of their community identity, and there is an argument about whether the proposal from the Government deals with that—and I would beg to differ. There is distrust of the powers of the central agency and the mayor, and there is also a real concern about local services. Quite frankly, I do not think that this bill deals with that. I have to acknowledge that some of the issues have been addressed, but only in part and not to the satisfaction of this Committee and not to the satisfaction of the local communities.

The Government members from the North Shore—the members who work over there—need to be listening. I work on the North Shore as a Labour list MP, and I have been listening. What people are saying to me is that there is still a huge power imbalance between the local boards and the super-city council. Local boards with four to nine members will be up against a powerful central body—with all the resources it gets—that doles out largesse, if you like, when it feels like it.

I have a huge concern about all the services that are being provided on the North Shore when an all-powerful central organisation is to decide what is good for the different communities of Auckland. The communities of Auckland are different, and the interesting thing about North Shore City is that it has a unique community coordination model. In fact, the Minister heard about that. The various community organisations, the mayor, and the council came along to the select committee and talked about that unique model, where coordinators are employed to build local community engagement and to tackle the particular issues in the areas they work in.

The people are all different, too. People like to think that the people who live north of the Auckland Harbour Bridge are well off, rich, and all that sort of stuff, and that they are all the same, but they are not. Northcote and Beachhaven are very different from Glenfield. Glenfield on the North Shore is different from Albany and Greenhithe. They have different populations, different needs, and different requirements for services. The services that are provided by the North Shore City Council are extensive. They are expected and supported by the people of the North Shore.

So I cannot get my head around how the local boards will continue to deliver those extensive services when they will have to compete with each other for funding, when they will have to go begging to the Auckland Council for money, and when, even then, those local boards can have their decisions overridden.

There are many outstanding questions about community services. What will happen to citizens advice bureaus? They are scattered throughout Auckland. What will happen to them? Will they be centrally resourced?

Jo Goodhew: You guys are the princes of scaremongering.

DARIEN FENTON: It is a fair question, I say to Jo Goodhew, and it is a question that people are asking.

Will citizens advice bureaus be centrally resourced from the central agency? Will that agency decide where citizens advice bureaus should or should not be, or will it be up to local boards to decide? If it is up to local boards to decide, then how will they decide on the funding and allocation of resources?

What will happen to the housing for older people on the North Shore? There are 458 low-cost units there. Who do they belong to, and who decides what the need is? Do they belong to the central agency or to the local boards, of which there could be three, four, or five? How will they decide who gets what? What happens to the 11 community houses across the North Shore and to the staff who service them?

Community houses are extremely important organisations. People can just come along to them and use the various resources and educational courses that are facilitated by the community coordinators. What happens to those coordinators? Do they lose their jobs? Who knows? These are the questions that the people of the North Shore are asking. What happens to things like the Community Facility Development Fund and the Creative Communities fund?

JOHN BOSCAWEN (ACT) : It is a pleasure to take a call in this debate. I have heard so much rubbish being spoken on this issue in the last 24 hours by members on the Opposition benches that I jokingly said to George Hawkins as we crossed the bridge across to the Chamber this evening that if he gave a speech then I would certainly find something in it to criticise. But I did not have to wait until George Hawkins got to his feet, because I got the comment I wanted to hear as I walked in the door. As I walked in the door I heard Lynne Pillay finishing her speech. And how did she finish it off? I will tell members. She said that had the bill gone to a referendum, then there would not be the debacle we see now. Labour suggests that the Government should have put up the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill for a referendum.

I will tell members of the Opposition about referendums. We have just had one, and those members have chosen to ignore the result. But I say to the people of New Zealand that one party is not ignoring the result of the referendum on the anti-smacking legislation. My next public meeting on the subject will be held next Monday in Waimakariri, in the Labour-held electorate of Clayton Cosgrove. There were 26,000 No votes, and Clayton wants to ignore them.

Let us move on to Ross Robertson. He is a fine member of Parliament; he is the member for Manukau East. I grew up in his electorate, and I know that the electorate holds Otahuhu College. What did Ross Robertson have to say? He said that the people of Ōtāhuhu have not got a swimming pool. He talked about the people of Ōtāhuhu being denied the most basic right of having a swimming pool. I wonder what Ross Robertson actually knows about his electorate, because I can tell him that the people of Ōtāhuhu have a swimming pool.

H V Ross Robertson: That’s the college one.

JOHN BOSCAWEN: He is dismissing a 33-metre swimming pool at Otahuhu College that was dug by hand by the pupils of the college and their parents in the 1950s. That pool has been locked to the Ōtāhuhu community. Mr Robertson’s Government was in power for 9 years. If he had wanted to make the pool available for the people of Ōtāhuhu, he could have done so. What an absolute waste to have a 33-metre, high-quality pool that is locked away and denied to the people of Ōtāhuhu. The member’s Government, which was in power for 9 years, could have funded Otahuhu College to make its pool available to the public, and it did not.

It was a privilege to serve on the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, and it gave me an opportunity to meet members of the committee whom I had not had an opportunity to get to know very well in the 7 or 8 months I have been in Parliament. I was privileged to get to know Mr William Sio. I had not had much to do with Mr Sio before. I apologise to Mr Sio for this, but I was not aware that he is a former Deputy Mayor of Manukau City. He was the second-highest elected official in Manukau City. How did Mr Sio get to become the Deputy Mayor of Manukau City? Was it because of the reserve seats for Pacific Islanders? No, he won his seat fair and square in a head-to-head competition in the ward of Ōtara. Mr Sio can have pride in being elected a councillor for the Ōtara ward and then going on to be elected the Deputy Mayor of Manukau City.

Mr Sio said this morning: “The Pacific communities throughout Auckland were prepared to put on hold their ambition to be included at the top table.” Nothing more than that comment could better illustrate to me the folly of having dedicated Māori seats. Mr Sio said to Parliament that the Pacific communities throughout Auckland—and I heard this morning that the Pacific community represents something like 12 or 13 percent of Aucklanders, and that Asians make up 13 percent of Auckland City—were prepared to put on hold their ambition to be at the top table while specific Māori seats were allocated to Auckland City. I say to Mr Sio and every member of the House—and members can call me glib if they like—that we have an electoral system in New Zealand that is one person, one vote. Mr Sio won his council seat in Ōtara and went on to be elected the Deputy Mayor of Manukau City.

I have heard Sam Lotu-Iiga being mentioned this afternoon, and he is in the Chamber. He is another Pacific Islander, and he was elected to the Auckland City Council for the ward of Maungakiekie. Mr Darren Hughes may not be aware of this, but the members of the select committee went out and heard evidence in Papatoetoe, in the heart of Manukau City, and we heard that there are three Māori councillors on Manukau City Council now. They were not reserve seats; they won their seats fair and square.

I tell Mr Hughes that we also heard that Manukau City councillors had the opportunity to provide for specific Māori seats under the existing legislation in New Zealand and that they chose not to—just like the councillors for Waitakere chose not to. Now that the Auckland Council bill is going through, councillors who have previously voted against having Māori seats based on racial grounds are now saying that the Government should provide for them, when the provision has been there all along and they have chosen not to take it.

I heard this afternoon about excluding Māori from the Auckland Council. That is utter rubbish. Māori are not excluded from the Auckland Council, in the same way that Pacific Islanders and Asians are not excluded from the Auckland Council. I also heard that the Government does not listen. That is the feedback we have had from the other side.

Hon Darren Hughes: That’s true.

JOHN BOSCAWEN: Well, Mr Hughes, I say to you that had you come to the select committee hearings, then I think it is fair to say—

H V Ross Robertson: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I know the member has not been here very long, but on two occasions—I ignored the first one—he brought you into the debate. That is not correct, and I ask you to ask the member to refer to members by their names or to speak through the Chair.

The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker): The member is correct; the member used the word “you”, but as I recall the sentence he started it by saying “Darren Hughes, such and such, you—”, so I took the “you” to be connected directly to Mr Hughes. He did not reflect it on me, so I think the matter is in order. But the point the member makes is a good one; we have to refer to members in the third person. I invite John Boscawen to continue.

JOHN BOSCAWEN: I will conclude by saying that the overwhelming number of submissions the select committee heard rejected the idea of having councillors at large. I personally was supportive of the concept of having councillors at large. If I have a chance to talk on the subject, perhaps later this evening, I can put up some of the advantages of having councillors at large. The overwhelming number of people who made submissions to the select committee were against having councillors at large. The Government has listened to those submissions, and that is what is reflected in this legislation. We do not have councillors at large; we have councils being elected from wards of one member or multi-member wards.

I also heard this afternoon that Auckland is rejecting the idea of the super-city. If members go out on to the streets of Auckland they will find that Aucklanders do not reject the idea of the super-city. They want one city, one mayor, and one rule book.

I will conclude as I started. I have heard so much rubbish this afternoon from the opposite side of the House. There is overwhelming support in Auckland for the Auckland Council, and I have no doubt that it will be an outstanding success. Thank you very much.

DAVID SHEARER (Labour—Mt Albert) : I will start by addressing Mr Boscawen and some of the points he put across just now. The overwhelming number of submissions to the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee supported Māori representation on the super-city council. Secondly, the simple reason people do not want the councillors at large that he supports is that people would have to be millionaires to run a campaign across Auckland. They would need $200,000 just to put out one pamphlet across Auckland. Nobody could afford that, and that is the reason why we support wards. We also need to make sure with representation that there are not more than two members in a multi-member ward, because otherwise the wards would be so big that only the privileged and the rich could run effectively. That is unfair and is not something that Aucklanders want. They totally rejected it in the submissions to the select committee.

I also want to speak about representation. The royal commission talked about six councils, for reasons of economy and to not disrupt the current structure too much. The current formula being put forward is for 20 to 30 local boards. The Minister of Local Government’s colleague Roger Douglas talked about the need for form to follow function. I think everybody on this side of the Committee would agree. But we do not want to go back to what we had in 1988, which was a lot of very small, rather inefficient councils and local boards—boroughs, as they were then—making rules for people and not being able to be effective. They were expensive and they were not effective. Our proposal is for 14 to 20 local boards. That strikes the balance between communities of interest and efficiency and effectiveness. That is the proposal we should go with and it is what we have before us today.

The Green Party mentioned the issue of cost. We believe that it will cost about $800 or more per ratepayer for these proposals to go through. We therefore want to get the formula right. We are asking people to pay for something that has been rushed through the House under urgency. I do not believe we have had enough time to consider the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill. We have had a situation in the last few days where Rodney District was out or split, and now it is in. Dr Paul Hutchison has been talking about the area of his concern, which is down in Hunua. He is a very nice person but nobody listened to him; they listened to the Mayor of Rodney, though, because the Mayor of Rodney is a former ACT MP. Of course, she has a little more weight or pull power than Paul Hutchison and the National Party.

We believe that the bill has been rushed through. It has not been thought through in the way it should have been.

Nikki Kaye: 2½ years.

DAVID SHEARER: It has not been 2½ years; it has been 9 muddied, muddled, ad hoc months. We started off with the royal commission report, which was ignored. A pamphlet went to everybody in Auckland, telling them what the ACT Party and the National Party thought should happen without any reference to the royal commission. Then we finally had to come to a select committee, where 2,500 submitters gave almost identical submissions to what they gave to the royal commission. We are still making eleventh-hour changes to the bill as we go through, depending on where the wind blows—

Chris Hipkins: Under urgency.

DAVID SHEARER: —under urgency. It is rushed, ill-thought-through adhockery. This is not the way Auckland should be considered and planned for.

Nikki was talking about something that was going to be historic.

Hon Gerry Brownlee: No, no.

DAVID SHEARER: Nikki Kaye—I beg the member’s pardon.

Hon TAU HENARE (National) : I want to say three words to Her Majesty’s loyal Opposition: “haters and wreckers”. Do Opposition members remember the phrase “haters and wreckers”? It came from the previous Prime Minister, Helen Clark. Why have Opposition members now come over all like marshmallows about Māori rights, Pacific Island people’s rights, and Asian people’s rights—about “rights” this and “rights” that? It does not work and it does not wash.

I turn to Mr Boscawen and make a point about what he said about Māori being elected to councils. In a way he is right, but in a way he is absolutely far from the truth—and so, I might add, is the Labour Party. Not once has Labour grasped the issue of Māori representation. It is not just about getting a dark horse or a dark face on the council—someone who just happens to have Māori genealogy. It is not about that at all; it is about being able to stand in an election on a Māori kaupapa, a Māori agenda. That is the real difference. Yes, I supported—and I still support—the Māori seat idea, based on that view. But because it is under a first-past-the-post system, I think we should have had Māori representation and Māori seats.

Everybody in this Committee knows—

Chris Hipkins: Is he going to vote for it?

Hon TAU HENARE: Everybody in this Committee, apart from the person who just turned up from playcentre—or is it Play School—knows that this is a team effort. There is no “I” in team, and I am a team player. If I get outvoted, then that is that: the team wins. I will take one for the team.

I turn now to something that really worries me about the kaupapa we are talking about.

Hon David Cunliffe: The kaupapa of the Dirty Dog glasses.

Hon TAU HENARE: Oh, yes. Dirty Dog is New Zealand - made.

George Hawkins is a doyenne and a longstanding supporter and member of the Labour Party. He was a Minister in the previous Government. He brought to the House an amendment that not even he would agree upon. He just threw it in. The amendment was to extend the boundaries to the south side of the Waikato River, right down to where it begins. That is what the amendment proposed, even though Mr Twyford told us he withdrew it. If that is the sort of research and skill base the Labour Party is relying on, then thank God National won the last election, with help from ACT, United Future, and the Māori Party. I guarantee that if we had had another 3 years of George Hawkins and his mates we would have been in dire straits. We would have been so far up the creek it would not have been funny.

The new member for Mt Albert, David Shearer, who spoke earlier, still thinks he is in Basra, Kabul, or somewhere other than Mt Albert. The fact remains that the number of people in each ward will basically be commensurate with what we have now in some of our electorate seats. He bemoaned the fact that one person will have to look after the issues and aspirations of all those people. But it is OK for Parliament to have the same number—

Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Labour—New Lynn) : It is a pleasure to take a brief call or three in the debate on the Local Government (Auckland Council) Bill and to follow on from the member of the tight five, Tau Henare, who has just resumed his seat. Tau Henare was a team player then and he is a team player now; it is just a different team. According to that member there was no “I” in Mauri Pacific and he struggled to find an “I” in the Alliance, but he has finally found an “I” in the National Party.

Hon Tau Henare: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. There is an “I” in Mauri Pacific.

The CHAIRPERSON (Hon Rick Barker): That is not a point of order; that is a debating point. We are not here to correct people’s spelling.

Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE: The alphabetically challenged waka jumper has gone from Dirty Dog to lapdog. In the good old days when he was young, strong, and full of testosterone, he would not have lain down and let the National Party bulldoze and roll over the top of him like he has here. He would not have been a member like Nikki Kaye, who said about trees “Oh, it’s so awful; I’ve talked to the Minister about it.” He would have simply crossed the floor of the Chamber, like the good old days. But, no, the Dirty Dog has become a lapdog.

Hon Darren Hughes: From Dirty Dog to lapdog!

Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE: The Dirty Dog is a lapdog.

Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga: Get that man a mirror!

Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE: I see that Mr Lotu-Iiga has vocalised, and that is a wonderful thing to see. It is wonderful to have both of those members in the Chamber today. It is wonderful to have both the councillor and the member of Parliament in the Chamber. He is uniquely qualified to talk about the rearrangement of the Auckland City Council because that is what he does for a living—he plays musical chairs.

In all seriousness now, the issue at the heart of this part of the debate is how many local boards should there be. The royal commission said six, the National Government says 30, and Labour says something in the middle—15 to 20.

Nikki Kaye: No, we said around 20 to 30, and Labour believed it should be 20.

Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE: With her customary precision, Nikki Kaye says around about 20 to 30. All right, that is fine. I was trying to be kind and point out that there is a trade-off. On the one hand, we have lower cost. That is the Rodney Hide view, the Countdown view, the cut-cost, cut-price view. It is a minimalist view of the State to have half a dozen boards and pay them nothing and get them to do nothing—no rates, rubbish, or rats. That is it. On the other hand, National would have 30 boards, but until this debate I could not understand why the National Government would want to put the ratepayer to such an expense. I say to colleagues it has finally dawned on me that there are not enough life rafts for the members of the National caucus if they had only half a dozen councils.

Where is Mr Lotu-Iiga’s triple dipper? It is in the community board for Eastern Bays. That will be where he heads next because his council seat is not safe and his parliamentary seat will probably by gone by the general election due to electoral reform. What about the man who campaigned for Te Atatū, Tau Henare? The member for Te Atatū, Chris Carter, is fine, but what about Tau Henare the waka jumper? The word is that Michael Jones will run for the National Party in Te Atatū next time. Mr Henare cannot even get to the starters platform. What thanks is that from the National Government for being its lapdog?

Hon Darren Hughes: High Commissioner to Niue!

Hon DAVID CUNLIFFE: He could be High Commissioner to Niue or the alderman on Te Atatū’s community board while Michael Jones runs for the seat of Te Atatū.

I say “Kia ora” to Nikki Kaye, who is a fine member. But Nikki Kaye is the hand-wringing apologist for the National Government in respect of the urban liberals of central Auckland. One of our number will probably become the MP for Auckland Central, and Nikki Kaye will be looking to the Western Bays community board for a job. There are not enough lifeboats for the Government’s hapless members who are staring down the barrel of imminent electoral defeat. So, to be absolutely sure, the Government has decided on 30 community boards, because there has to be room somewhere for the whole caucus, and the other four members of the tight five. Thank you.

Hon JOHN CARTER (Associate Minister of Local Government) : If we have ever had an example of why this debate is turning into a disappointment, it was the contribution by the previous speaker, the Hon David Cunliffe. One of the things that I had hoped would happen in this debate, given we had a time limit of 16 hours, was that the Opposition would want to set out very clearly its direction, its policies, and what it hoped to achieve for Auckland. But the contribution from the previous speaker is just an example of why the Labour Party is 27 percent in the polls and going down. It is unfortunate.

Let me just state, again, the direction that this Government is setting out for Auckland. I must say, in that regard, the Opposition agrees with this. The Government is looking to have an authority that looks after regional issues. The Opposition agrees. Indeed, I think everybody agrees, maybe with the exception of the Greens—and I am not even sure about that now. Everyone understands that we need to have a structure that will address the regional matters that people want addressed. That is the first and most important point. It is the fundamental reason why we are making this change. Members talked about an amalgamation of local government, but actually this structure is not an amalgamation. I think it was Sue Kedgley who talked about amalgamation. This is not an amalgamation in the sense of the amalgamations of putting local authorities together. We are changing the structure. We are making sure there is clarity in the ability of the unitary authority to have regional decision-making on those matters that concern Aucklanders—transport, water, parks, and the environment. Those are the sorts of things that matter across the city and across the whole of the region.

The second thing that the Government is making sure will happen is that there is the opportunity for the local voice—the local democracy—to express itself. That is one thing, and, again, I have heard the Opposition say that as well. Su’a William Sio made it very clear that one of the things that he heard in volumes was that people expected this Government to ensure that their local communities were empowered. We have done that. I want to make a couple of points in that regard, because when we started out we were thinking that we would prescribe in law the functions of the local boards; that we would give them lists of things that they could do. But as we listened to the submissions we realised that there was such a variety of things that communities wanted within their Auckland areas that we could not put them in a list, because we would miss something out. Something might be relevant for one local board but would not be pertinent or relevant for another. So the people of Auckland asked us for the ability to have flexibility to allow them to carry out the things that they want to do in their communities. So we have put into the bill the principle of subsidiarity. It is about functions. It is about the things that the community wants. Again, I have to say the members of the Auckland Governance Legislation Committee, without exception, accepted that principle in general. I know that Sue Kedgley, particularly—although Sue Bradford is more relaxed—is still concerned about it. We accept that, but I say to Sue Kedgley that as we move forward we will be able to show her that it will work, but it will take some time.

The point I make is that it was important that we reflected that community voice and allowed those people to have their say. Alongside that, we knew that if all we did was give them the ability to make decisions, but did not allow them the financial ability to carry them out, we would fail. So the Auckland Transition Agency, as it moves forward—once we know the local boards and we have heard the results from the Local Government Commission—will then allocate a budget to the local boards. That will be set from then on in. As the new unitary authority sets its budget, so too will it prescribe that money for those local boards to carry out those functions. Let me just make it very clear that those functions that are prescribed by the Auckland Transition Agency cannot then be removed from the local boards, unless it is by agreement between the local boards and the unitary authority. It has to be by agreement. That is where we are going to put in place, in case of dispute, a dispute resolution system that will make sure that the unitary authority cannot overpower the local boards.

Certainly local boards have the ability to look at things on a regional basis. There is no question about that. We have made that very clear, and, of course, there will be some things that they will want to consider on a regional basis. Libraries are a classic example. Of course, each local board, or community, will want to have its library outlet so people will have access to their library. But it makes sense—and, indeed, we have heard it from people who are far better versed in administering libraries than I am—that we administer libraries on a regional basis. We cannot have them isolated, so that people are reading the same books. The whole purpose of having a Library Service is so there is an exchange. So there will be a regional policy basis for the libraries, but within that, each of the local boards will be able to make its own policy around how its library is run for its people. It will be a two-tier thing. They will work in conjunction and in unison with each other.

Ross Robertson asked about swimming pools. There is no question that the unitary authority may well make a policy about swimming pools. I do not know; it may or it may not. But even if it does, it will be on a regional basis that will permit the local board that looks after the Manukau area, or whatever area it may be, to decide whether it wishes to continue with its policy of allowing its ratepayers to have free access to its swimming pools.

H V Ross Robertson: What about Ōtāhuhu, John?

Hon JOHN CARTER: Well, again, the unitary authority can take that matter up, I say to Ross Robertson, and create free swimming pool access, if that is what is happening, or the local board within the area can be provided with the funding to make it happen. That is the beauty of this system. We will allow those communities to make it happen. Even better than that, if for some reason the unitary authority says it cannot provide the funding, the local community can say it will provide a targeted rate and do it itself. So there is that flexibility as well.

Besides that, the next thing we need to do is to make sure that those facilities can be serviced, and we